One of the most excrutiating experiences that a supervisor can have is to fire someone from their job. The first time I had to do this with a staff member, I felt horrible. Although I did not hire the person initially, I felt partially responsible that the staff member didn’t work out. I wondered, “What if I had supervised this person better? What if I had given them more attention? More training? More warning?”
Most pastors will leave a church via their own resignation. They will choose the method and timing of their departure. In the great majority of cases, they will leave one church for another. Sometimes they will leave a pastorate to teach in a Bible college or join a parachurch organization. And one day, they will preach their last sermon and then retire.
But many pastors – surveys now indicate more than 25% – leave church ministry involuntarily. They are usually forced from office by a faction of ten people or less … sometimes by their governing board. Most of the time, the process is handled clumsily, resulting in seething anger, ecclesastical division, and incalculable damage.
How can the termination of a pastor be handled in a more biblical and optimal fashion?
An attorney can recommend the legal way to terminate a pastor. The CEO of a company might suggest how it’s done in business. The church’s insurance agent might propose ways the church can minimize risks. And I could mention the way the federal government terminates employees … except they almost never terminate anyone!
If you’d like to read what the Bible says about correcting an elder/pastor, please check out 1 Timothy 5:19-21 (which applies Matthew 18:15-20 to spiritual leaders). I believe a pastor should be removed for heresy and for immorality but that many of the reasons why boards fire pastors today have more to do with style than sin. (Please see some of my previous blogs on these topics.)
I was a pastor for nearly four decades, and I saw a lot of my colleagues terminated in senseless ways. If I was still in pastoral ministry, and the board decided I had to go, here’s how I would like that process to be conducted:
First, I’d like to see a possible termination coming. If attendance was plunging, and giving was going south, and church opinion makers were unhappy, I would probably sense that my time in that place was coming to a close. And if members of the church board had talked with me about making changes in my ministry, but I either wouldn’t or couldn’t pull them off, that would suggest to me that my days in that church were numbered.
Some pastors have confessed to me that they stayed too long in a previous pastorate and wished they had left before they did.
Last fall, I had lunch with a former mega church pastor. He had been in his church for more than two decades, but for some unknown reason, attendance suddenly began declining at a rate where nothing he tried worked anymore. When he preached, he sensed that people weren’t listening to him. He eventually reached a settlement with the church board and resigned. The Lord confirmed to his spirit that his time in that spiritual community was over.
If a board has shared their concerns with their pastor, and if matters haven’t turned around after a reasonable time frame (maybe six months to a year), then the pastor should not be surprised if the board openly talks to him about leaving.
But if the ministry is going well, and attendance and giving are holding steady, and the board has never discussed the pastor’s behavior or ministry with him in a formal way, and then the board decides to terminate the pastor … the pastor will rightfully feel blindsided, and the board may very well lose control of the situation. While the board may have the legal and ecclesiastical right to remove the pastor from office (and in most congregational churches, they don’t have that right – only the congregation does), blindsiding a pastor with termination may be considered a destructive act that results in ripping apart both the pastor’s family and the church family. (Just know up front that many of the pastor’s supporters will leave the church within a few months.)
If I’m going to be involuntarily terminated, I want to see it coming a mile away. And if I do see it coming, I will try and make my own plans to depart before the board ever has to deal with me.
Second, I would like the process to be fair, not fast. When one member of a church board decides that “the pastor must go,” his anxiety can become contagious. Before anyone realizes the full ramifications, the entire board may then fall into line and quickly decide to fire the pastor. While anxiety drives us to make fast decisions, Jesus encourages us to make fair decisions.
Let’s say that a pastor has recently displayed inappropriate anger several times in private. The board should not convene and decide to fire the pastor immediately. Instead, Jesus says in Matthew 18:15 that if a believer sins [and this includes the pastor], it’s your duty to “show him his fault” in private [one-on-one, not in a board meeting]. Then Jesus says, “If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen …” then you are to take one or two witnesses along, and “if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church.” Some scholars believe that the board should be informed between verses 16 and 17, although Jesus doesn’t say that. In other words, the process is:
*A single believer [maybe the board chairman] talks with the pastor about his sin in private.
*If the pastor refuses to change, that single believer asks one or two more people [a staff member? a friend of the pastor?] to witness a second confrontation.
*If the pastor still refuses to change … only then does it become a board matter.
*If the pastor refuses to listen to the board (that’s three refusals), then either they can terminate him (if the church’s governing documents allow for this) or the church as a whole can vote him out of office in a public meeting (although there will be lobbying and it may become very divisive).
I don’t pretend to know how much time is needed between steps (maybe a month or two between each one?) but Jesus did not necessarily intend for the process to work instantly. The person being confronted – in this case, the pastor – is not being corrected for getting angry, but for refusing to acknowledge his anger and make the necessary changes in his life.
Before saying, “But pastors should be able to change their behavior immediately,” how long does it take you to make a major change in your life?
That’s why we need to give a pastor some time to make changes in his life.
Third, I would expect to be offered a generous separation package. The minimal severance a pastor should receive is six months. If a pastor has been in a church for more than six years, then a good rule-of-thumb is that he receive one month’s salary for every year he’s served in a church. While some board members might exclaim, “I would never receive severance pay like that at my job,” please realize the following facts about pastors:
*They are ineligible for unemployment benefits.
*They and their family members will suffer tremendously. It is common for the older children of a terminated pastor to stop attending church and even leave the faith. The wives of terminated pastors go from being somebodies to nobodies overnight. If the marriage has already been strained by ministry, the couple might head for divorce.
*The terminated pastor is often in so much pain that he turns to alcohol, drugs, or illicit sex.
*They will lose almost everything dear to them by being terminated: their careers, their income, their church family, their local friends, their house (if they have to leave the community and sell), and their reputations – in other words, they will lose their life as they know it. (This is why pastors often hang on at a church long after they should leave.)
*They will be stigmatized as a “loser” in much of the Christian community. As a veteran pastor told me when I first entered the pastorate, if a pastor resigns with no place to go, it’s the “kiss of death.” If he applies for another church position, his resume will most likely go to the bottom of the pile because he was fired from his previous church. The Christian world is very small and word gets around quickly.
*They will suffer constant depression, great anxiety, and feel like God has abandoned them.
*They will be shocked to discover that many of their ministry colleagues will turn away from them.
*The terminated pastor usually has to rebuild his life and ministry, and that takes time. The separation package allows for the pastor to pull away from ministry so he can take stock of his life and begin the healing process. If the pastor is given a token separation package, he and his family will feel that he has been “kicked to the curb” and it will take them a long time to recover and forgive those who hurt them.
We talk a lot in the church today about social justice. This is ecclesiastical justice.
If a board cannot or will not give the pastor a generous separation package, then they need to think twice – or ten times – about letting him go. Getting cheap here borders on being unchristian.
Finally, I would welcome the opportunity to resign rather than be fired. If the members of a governing board want to be vindictive toward a pastor, they can fire him outright – but the word will quickly get around the church, and the board will be severely criticized by many while others will angrily leave the fellowship and encourage others to come with them.
When some churches blindside a pastor by firing him, they never recover … and it becomes easier to fire the next pastor. When I was a kid, my dad felt forced to resign as a pastor, and after the board fired the next two pastors, the church went out of existence.
But if both the pastor and the board announce that the pastor resigned voluntarily, it takes the heat off the board and allows the pastor to leave with dignity.
The optimal win-win scenario is for the pastor to trade a unifying resignation letter for a generous separation package. That is, the pastor cites multiple reasons for his leaving in his letter, doesn’t harshly criticize anyone in the church (especially the leaders), and encourages everyone in the church to stay and support the next pastor. Years ago, I learned this adage: “The way you leave is the way you will be remembered.” Leave bitter, and you will leave a legacy of bitterness. Leave with class, and you will leave a legacy of class.
A small percentage of pastors deserve to be terminated – maybe even quickly – because they have inflicted great destruction on their ministries, their families, and themselves. But even then, they should be treated with dignity and their families should be cared for. But the great majority of terminations go wrong because the board wants the pastor to leave as quickly as possible, and they run the risk of dehumanizing him in the process.
Next time, I’ll talk about how to say goodbye to a pastor in a way in which everyone can win.
I just want to see Christian churches handle these situations in a more biblical and redemptive way.
Check out our website at www.restoringkingdombuilders.org You’ll find Jim’s story, recommended resources on conflict, and a forum where you can ask questions about conflict situations in your church.
Restoring Kingdom Builders 
Thank you for your comments. There’s a lot of truth in what you say about CEOs in secular companies – but as you note, they are often given generous severance packages, even when they don’t perform well. This is usually because they negotiated a contract before they took the job, something pastors rarely get to do. But a local body of Christ isn’t a business – it’s a church – and needs to operate according to biblical principles. While some pastors do need to be removed from office, it needs to be done biblically, justly, graciously, and honestly. There are way too many pastors, pastor’s wives, and pastor’s kids who have been severely damaged by the way a board or congregation removed a pastor from office, not to mention the damage done to the churches themselves. We can do much, much better than we’re doing! I look forward to hearing from you again.
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This was very informative. Our church is going through this process and it has become a disgrace. There are judges, police, sheriffs, and DAs involved. I want to know how to pay a pastor when he haven’t work in over 15 years. The board has followed these steps in accordance with the bylaws.
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I’m sorry for what you’re going through. There is nothing more heartwrenching for a congregation.
There are three sets of guidelines that a board needs to follow carefully when terminating a pastor. First, they need to follow Scripture (Matthew 18:15-17; 1 Timothy 5:19-21) and work the biblical process in an honest, patient way. Second, they need to follow their own bylaws to the letter. Finally, they need to follow labor law so the church doesn’t end up in court. Pastors are famous for “holding on” long after they should leave because of a concept called “total institutional mindset.” This means that the pastor views his entire life as being connected to his church and that if he has to leave, his life is over and he will lose everything. Sadly, there is a lot of truth to this fear … I’ve seen it happen all too many times. God bless you as you go through this … and if I can help, contact me through my email at jim@restoringkingdombuilders.org. I’ll be praying for you!
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I appreciate your comments about being sensitive to the needs and care of the pastor and his family. However, the glaring omission in your article is any discussion of the treatment and hardships that fall upon members of the church when a pastor has gone astray. My family is one of many in our community that has suffered because of a bullying pastor. This pastor refuses to ackowledge his poor management of ministries, funds, and personnel. Certainly not all, but too many pastors stand between God and the people in their care. When our Savior sacrificed Himself in our stead, the veil was torn. It seems, however, that for the last two thousand years – the veil is being restored by human design, denominational hierachy, and pastoral pride. Granted, no sensible person expects the pastor to be infallible. But the destruction of the families and member-relationships is much harder on the ones left behind when the pastor moves on to his next “call”. What is to be said for the ones hurt by the pastor’s refusal to bow before our Lord? He can claim that the “people have lost the vision” and move along relatively unscathed. Meanwhile, the wake of his rein will crush the community and can cause people to walk away from the faith. Christ revealed this very truth of the last days to us in Matthew 24. I agree that God calls us to act with care; but I disagree that we are to move slowly. When it becomes clear where the danger lies, urgency is mandated. If your family is being decimated at an alarming rate — why wait? I’ve got no issue with being sensitive to the pastor and his family – but frankly I’m disgusted with the devastation felt among those he was entrusted to serve. Not unlike our criminal justice system, the modern church system spends a lot of energy and resources directed toward the restoration and rehabilitation of the offender. In both scenarios I ask: Where is the concern for the victims?
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Michael, I’ve written lots of articles on pastors who misbehave and need to be confronted. For example:
https://blog.restoringkingdombuilders.org/2012/01/04/confronting-your-pastor/
https://blog.restoringkingdombuilders.org/2011/11/28/stupid-pastors/
https://blog.restoringkingdombuilders.org/2011/08/29/conflict-with-the-pastor/
There are others as well. I can’t cover every topic in each post, but I try my best to be balanced overall.
The most common scenario in our day is for a small group in the church to attack a pastor and try and have him removed from office. They lie about him, exaggerate things he’s done, gradually gather adherents, and then attack him in a board meeting or a public meeting … and the pastor doesn’t know that any of this is going on. 1,300 pastors are involutarily terminated in the US every month, most of them innocent victims.
But I deplore pastors who use bullying, and manipulation, and abuse … tactics unworthy of a man of God. My main concern for boards is that they use the steps in Matthew 18:15-17 and 1 Timothy 5:19-21. Usually what happens is that the board gets anxious to remove the pastor because their friends threaten to leave the church, or attendance takes a dive, or the pastor threatens to sue … and by acting quickly, they make mistakes … mistakes the abusive pastor is sure to exploit. I’m NOT saying wait six months or two years before dealing with such a pastor. I’m just saying go slow enough to work the biblical steps … and make sure to consult an attorney and cover yourself legally.
My hope and prayer is that I can expose some of the tactics that bullying pastors use so they don’t work anymore. For example, “Touch not the Lord’s anointed, and do Thy prophets no harm.” That one works on some people, but if people studied in context, it says nothing about voting out a pastor … which a congregation certainly has the right to do.
There can be abuse and bullying in both directions … and we need to stop all sin in our midst.
You might peruse a few more of the articles in the “Pastoral Termination” or “Conflict with the Pastor” sections. Since I’ve been the victim of deception and destruction myself, I know how it feels from my angle … but I’ve also witnessed a controlling pastor in action myself.
God bless you, Michael, as you try and deal with this … and if you need to talk, I’m available. Just send me an email at jim@restoringkingdombuilders.org and we can set up a time.
I’ll be praying.
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Thanks for your good thoughts on a difficult topic.
I was shocked to learn that 1,300 pastors are involutarily terminated every month in the U.S. Would you mind posting the source?
Many thanks for your writings!
In peace,
Paul
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Hi Paul,
The statistics are cited all over the internet, but I’ve chosen to use this source:
Pastoral Care Inc., “Statistics,” available from http://pastoralcareinc.com; Internet.
I’ve completed a book on the topic of pastoral termination, and the introduction begins with that unbelievable statistic. There are a variety of reasons why this is so: boards adopting a business model (“produce or you’re gone”); church leadership failing to create a clear process for handling complaints against a pastor (“ah, let’s just fire him”); the power that a vocal few are granted in most churches (it takes ten or less vocal individuals to force out a pastor because nobody will stand up to them); and on and on. Behind all of this lies an enemy whose goal is to strike the shepherd so the sheep will be scattered. And when this tragedy occurs … time after time … the pastor’s career is over (it’s difficult to get back into church ministry once you’ve left it) and the church suffers tremendously (attendance and giving plunges, friendships are destroyed, outreach and missions take a dive). The church of Jesus knows little about this issue because it’s poor marketing for the Christian faith … but we have to do something to stop this destructive cycle. Thanks for writing, Paul!
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Thank you, Jim. I will certainly read your other posts as your counsel as already blessed me. And I really appreciate you offering your time to visit with me. The biggest lesson I’m learning through all of this is how much God loves us and continues to pursue. I’ve also changed how I ask for Grace. No longer do I ask just for myself, but now I’m asking in order to give it to others. God used my wife to remind me that He loves the “offenders” just as much as He loves me.
May God continue to bless you and your ministry
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Thanks, Michael. These situations are never easy. Let me just encourage you: if you’re a board member involved in this, write up your process and be prepared … at the right time … to let everybody know what it is. If you don’t use a predetermined process, you will be accused of having a personal vendetta against the pastor. Without revealing details about the pastor’s behavior, just show interested parties the process you used. If people see it was fair … and that you gave the pastor the opportunity to respond to evidence and face his accusers … they won’t become nearly so angry with you. Christian leaders are famous for shortcutting processes out of anxiety to get the result they desire so they can just “move on.” It’s a trap … be very careful. I trust everything will work out for God’s glory and the good of everyone involved.
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How much would you compensate a non senior pastor who has only been with you a year and resigned after causing much destruction within the church? Thank you
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Thanks for writing. It all depends.
Was it a full-time position?
Does the person have a family?
What percentage of the church supported this person? (This matters because if they’re popular, and you give the person nothing, this person’s supporters may rise up against church leaders. If you can say, “We gave this person ____ months,” they’ll probably back off.)
What was the nature of their destruction in general?
I’d say one to three months, depending upon the answers to those questions.
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Our church is also now going through this and I believe they are doing it very badly. Apparently the session(elders) have discussed this(hopefully at length) and yesterday made a bombshell announcement that they want to disolve the relationship with our pastor. They refuse to tell the congregation why. My question for you all is, is this right? does the session have the right to “fire” the pastor without the congregations say? they tell us we can vote next week but they wont tell us what happened so we do not know what we are voting on and they have already made their decision so why are we voting at all. is any of this right and is there anything I can do about it? Thanks
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Kristie, thank you so much for writing. I hurt with you over the loss of your pastor.
This kind of situation is very common in churches these days … as is the way it’s being handled.
I don’t know whether the session has the right to fire the pastor without the congregation’s approval or not. See if you can obtain a copy of your church’s constitution and bylaws and find out. They may be on the church website … if not, call the office and ask them to send you the documents online … and if they won’t do that, ask your friends in the church for the documents until you get them.
Here are two likely scenarios:
First, the pastor committed a major moral offense. I’ve heard of a pastor leaving a church because of gambling … or handling arguments with his fists … or not working hard enough … or not visiting people in hospitals … the list goes on and on.
If the pastor was guilty of some offense, the board wouldn’t want to embarrass him or hurt his career by naming his sin in public. There might also be legal repercussions if they did.
If the pastor was guilty of sexual immorality, then another person or family is involved, and the session may not want their situation exposed to the public, either.
You don’t know if any of these possibilities are true, so please don’t share them with others. Just know that if they are true, the session probably doesn’t want to hurt anyone by revealing the situation. If they do, people will press them for details, and then lawyers might get involved.
Second, the more common scenario is that the pastor and the session do not agree on the direction the church should take. The pastor wants to go in one direction and one or more session members want the church to go in a different direction. If this is the case, it is unlikely that anyone will be honest about it. Everyone will hide behind spiritual language.
The pastor may have been given a choice as to whether he would resign or be fired, and the session may have offered him a severance package if he would leave without saying anything in public.
Here are several suggestions on how you might handle this:
First, contact the member of the session you know best and ask him/her (a) if they handled this situation according to the church constitution and bylaws, and (b) if they used a biblical process (using Matthew 18:15-20 and 1 Timothy 5:19-21) in dealing with the pastor. They should be open about this information. If they won’t tell you or the answer is “no,” I’d be concerned.
I’d also ask them, “Have you have taken steps to take care of the pastor’s family financially?” The issue isn’t severance pay … the issue is caring for the pastor’s family.
Second, if you know a member of the church staff, set up an appointment with that person and ask them if they can tell you what happened. They probably know. They may or may not be forthcoming, but you’ll probably learn a little more than you know now.
Third, if you know the pastor or his wife, send them (a) a card, (b) flowers, (c) an email of encouragement … letting them know that you love them and care for them no matter what.
Fourth, whatever you learn, keep it to yourself. You may not be getting accurate information. There are always two sides to every story, and if the pastor leaves, his side may never get out.
Fifth, form or join a prayer group, and begin praying for your church and your leaders. Your church is very vulnerable right now to satanic attack through deception and division.
Finally, realize you may learn some of the story if you’re just patient. These things have a way of leaking out … but take what you hear with a grain of salt. After a pastor leaves, people with an ax to grind against him will start sharing their true feelings about him, and you just don’t know if what they’re saying is true or not. DON’T BELIEVE THE FIRST THING YOU HEAR! Try and get it from an official source.
Sometimes church boards won’t really share what happened because it might make THEM look bad. They cover up their own mistakes by claiming that everything is confidential. If the congregation elects the session members, the session needs to be accountable to the people in some way.
If you’d like to set up a phone appointment, I’d be happy to speak with you. You can email me at jim@restoringkingdombuilders.org
Jim
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I am a pastor who have been fired by my bishop in front of national television which broadcast the story in the news.
I took a leave two years ago to go for further studies (Masters degree) and made an arrangement to pay for my schooling and in fact I did.My leave expired on August and I reported on 3rd September, on the 9/9 my parents called me and informed me that they saw in the news that I was fired by the bishop.
I was never called in a meeting, nor was informed by a letter nor was informed by a word of mouth.
My suffering is so huge as my wife is a bi-polar ans she swinged after she heard about that.As I speak I dont know the reason and I dont know why on the TV (never happened before).
One thing I believe though God is in control and he loves me.
Rev.Paul E.Mdumi
Lutheran Church Tanzania.
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Greetings Rev. Paul,
I am so sorry for what happened to you. It sounds like the bishop acted in a thoughtless manner.
I do not know the polity that your denomination/church organization has. While your dismissal may be legal, it certainly does not sound biblical and is certainly not in the spirit of the Christian faith.
Since the firing happened around the time you tried to return to your church, is it possible that the bishop was (a) pleased with the work that was already being done at your church, and (b) that he didn’t want you around for some reason?
If possible, try and find out the real reasons for your dismissal. It might not be pleasant, but sometimes it’s necessary for healing.
I will be praying for you, my brother Paul. God bless you as you carry on … and I do recommend that you meet with a group of pastors on a regular basis for encouragement and prayer.
Jim
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I was just called in to what was supposed to be a “regular” meeting of the elders and asked to resign. No warning. No conflict in other meetings – and told to just congregation I had resigned and I would have a two months severance. I did what they asked. Completely blindsided. The charge? They could not work with me – just ‘pretended’ too to get along. I had no warning, and no flags. BTW, I have been a pastor for 40 years – in this start up for 1.5 years. The congregation responded angrily to the elders yesterday – even though I said a simple farewell, thanking them for the honor of service and called them to support their leaders. Then even more accusations were read from the front, “we have been working with him for 6 mos” which became news to me – So disruptive – Ray
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Ray,
What was done to you was unchristian, unbiblical, cowardly, wrong and evil … and far too common. Thanks for writing. I am out-of-state but will get back to you in 2 days. We need to shine a light on this problem and expose the deceivers for who they are … and they are everywhere.
Jim
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What all is concidered when speaking of a severance pay for a pastor? Insurance?
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Hi Robyn,
Yes, a severance/separation package would include: salary, medical insurance, and retirement. You can always negotiate this. For example, if you’re dismissing a pastor, you can give him a dollar amount you’re willing to pay and ask him how he’d like it allotted. Maybe he’d choose not to take retirement. It all depends upon two main factors: (1) does the pastor have another job lined up? (2) how much of a surprise was the dismissal?
If the pastor could see the dismissal coming, maybe he has another job lined up. If he was blindsided, he’ll need more severance, not less.
Just to tell you from experience: some people from the church will want to know if the pastor received a fair separation package.
Thanks for writing!
Jim
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Thank you so much for answering! Sad to say our pastor has not been handling our money in the church properly. This has been very difficult for the past 6 months. The trustees in the church have been handling it God’s way and he has not been responding.We have been accused of trying to split the church. Our church has not held a business meeting until a week ago Wednesday. So this will give you an idea of what has been going on. Many more things. The deacons, the trustees and pastor had a meeting and he said he would take a buy out and leave. This has been one of the most heart breaking situations of my life. Again, thank you for you time.
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God bless you, Robyn. I’ll be praying for you. Make sure you run things by an attorney and your insurance company. Expect some people to leave the church, especially those who attend just because of the pastor. Try and look 1-2 years down the road when things should settle down. Hang in there!
Jim
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Thank you so very much for your words of encouragement! Thank you for your prayers. They are greatly appreciated. I know God has a plan from the way things have happened. We are speaking with an attorney tomorrow. Thank you for what you do. May God richly bless you.
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Thanks for this article. We have had a pastor for about six months. He has caused probably one-fourth of the church members to leave. His major problem seems to be that he has anger control issues along with control issues. He came expecting opposition, and when he had little, he just made it. He also appears to think the pastor should never be disagreed with. I like him, but he is probably in a position he is not mature enough for. I believe his previous church folded, but our search committee must have felt he was able to explain how that happened. Anyway, our deacons and staff have met with him to offer him counseling. He refused. With no effort on his part to change, he was asked to resign. We will be having a church meeting to talk about severance. My thought is 3 months, but I wanted to see what was right before I go to the meeting. Your article was helpful.
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Gale,
If the pastor has only been at the church for six months, 3 months is more than fair, and is actually very generous. If he has a family, they certainly need the support.
I can’t understand why the pastor would refuse counseling. We all have our blind spots, and pastors preach that we are all sinners. If nothing else, he could have used the time to find out how to work better with church leaders.
It’s healthy to disagree with a pastor at times. While he may not like the disagreements, the way he handles disagreements says a lot about his character. Currently 70% of all seminary graduates are not lasting 5 years in church ministry, and your pastor sounds like he might feel entitled to certain privileges that pastors once had to earn over time.
When you have your church meeting, please don’t allow people to pile up accusations and charges against the pastor. In other words, don’t permit a dump-on-the-pastor fest. He may not be the right person for your church at this time, but God may work in his life and use him in a mighty way someday. Believe me, the things that are said in those meetings have a way of filtering back to the pastor and his family, and they can be devastating to their future … and the future of your church. The way you handle this conflict with the pastor will impact the way you handle the next one.
If I can be of any further help, please let me know.
Jim
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Thanks so much for the response. This whole debacle is very sad. I may return with questions as I prepare my heart and mind for this meeting.
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Gale,
The key to the meeting is to pray and request that everyone (a) speak their mind in love, but (b) remain calm. It’s the job of spiritual leaders to keep the anxiety in the meeting at a minimal level. When anxiety goes up, conflict goes up. When anxiety goes down, conflict goes down. Come up with a plan ahead of time for the people who are going to overreact. They can easily hijack the meeting. No matter what anyone else says or does, STAY CALM! God bless you as you go through this difficult process. Romans 12:18
Jim
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Thanks again for your help. Our meeting went well. Everyone was calm. Truly, the moderator said he was very impressed. The church voted to give him six months’ severance and benefits. After the business session ended, the leaders allowed the congregation to ask questions about the past and future to move on. There wasn’t any pastor-bashing. The leaders took some responsibility for miscommunicating or using the same words but each thinking it meant something different. I think our church can now move forward, and there’s nothing hidden or unsettled. I’m glad your website was here.
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Gale,
I’m so pleased. While these situations are always lamentable, they can be handled using biblical principles and a Christlike spirit. Sounds like that’s what was done in your situation.
You can expect some fallout. There are people in your church who attend, serve and give because they like that pastor. Some may leave abruptly, others more gradually. Try and monitor things.
Watch for any Shadow Christians … people who stand in the shadows and are hurt over what happened. Engage them … listen to them … pray with them … and acknowledge their pain. While you’ll usually lose some people when a pastor is removed, there’s no sense in losing people who are recoverable with just a little TLC.
God bless you and your church, Gale!
Jim
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This article came up while I was researching what to do when the pastor refuses to leave. He has been the pastor close to 10 years. The church has asked him to leave 2 or 3 times before so at this point sent him a 90 day termination notice. He refuses to leave saying that the proper channels weren’t followed although from your article it seems that they were. It came to the 90 day notice because he stopped all meetings unless called by him and told the majority of the members that we had no vote because we weren’t active or in good standing. Our church has no bylaws because before him our pastor had been there for over 20 years. We have no idea what to do because the police won’t help without a court order even though we have the termination papers and the majority of the members voting to say he’s no longer the pastor. Your article was helpful but there’s still no answer to what we do next.
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I’m so sorry this situation has happened to you and your church. Even though you say that the majority of members no longer want him to be the pastor, obviously some want him to stay or else he would have left already. If he came to church for a couple weeks and no one was there, he probably would see the handwriting on the wall.
You can’t handle this situation internally. You need help from the wider Body of Christ.
Ideas:
*Call the local Christian college and seminary. Try and talk to a professor who specializes in pastoral ministry. Ask him or her to recommend some conflict consultants to you. Then you and several other leaders sit down with the consultant and see what he/she says. You must be willing to pay the consultant. Believe me, it’s worth it!
*See if the pastor will agree to some form of Christian mediation. Contact Peacemakers to see if they have a local representative. Both parties – including the pastor – have the right to interview and approve any mediator ahead of time.
*Contact the Society for Church Consulting and see if they have anyone nearby who can step in as an interventionist.
*Contact a Christian labor attorney – not to sue anyone – but to seek legal counsel.
Let me ask one question: what is the pastor afraid of if he resigns?
Is he afraid he’ll never find another church? That his reputation will be ruined? That he won’t be able to feed his family?
If you can gently alleviate his fears, he might move quietly toward the door. For example, if you offer to give him a separation package of 6 months, he might agree to leave.
My guess is that he wants to leave and that he just wants to save face. It’s brutal for pastors out there right now … there are very few jobs available inside churches anymore. He probably knows this and is hoping that the opposition will leave instead.
If 95% of the church was behind him, I’d encourage you to leave. But if less than 50% of the church is behind him, he can’t be productive. It’s how to do that that’s difficult.
Stay calm … remain loving … be hopeful … always with a Christlike spirit.
Jim
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Thank you so much for your assistance. We will try all of your suggestions. To answer your questions let me first say that the church didn’t do it’s due diligence before hiring the pastor. It was not known at the time that he had become confrontational at a church and forced to leave another, both of these things made known by him as we’ve tried to release him. Many of the members, including me, went elsewhere because the older members didn’t see what was happening at the time and when they did they told us that God would handle it. Now many of them are sick or elderly and don’t come to church regularly. As for the people that want him there, it’s one deacon (we only have 2) who the pastor appointed chairman. That deacon, his wife, and his daughter are the only ones who want him to stay….we’re just not sure why. They have told 3 people so far that they have been released from their duties basically because they are going against him. A letter was sent to the secretary, another lady, and this past Sunday the Asst. Pastor was told he isn’t allowed in the pulpit for 6 months. It is really a tragedy. The only reasons that I can think of for him not leaving is him wanting the building. It is a family church and lots of hard work has been done over the years to make it nice especially for a little country church. Oh, and we tried not coming but he’ll preach with only 4 people there. Well, time to get started on your ideas.
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I’m sorry you’re going through such a hard time. It does seem like a bit of a nightmare. The deacon who is chairman supports the pastor because they’re friends and because they’ve made some sort of a pact together.
Does the pastor want the building? I don’t know. That would require both sides bringing in attorneys to find out who owns it legally. Under no circumstances should your group surrender the building to a single individual. The congregation as a whole owns the building.
This is a no-win situation all around, so the quicker you can bring in a professional, the quicker you can get this resolved.
I’ll be praying …
Jim
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I struggled with the integrity of how this all works. In the secular world, you get RIF’d. You sign a contract that says you won’t sue the company and get a severance. Everyone knows what happened.
In a church, you (call it what you want), they ask you to give your resignation stating you are quiting for x reason (retire, another position, etc…). You promise not to sue the church and get a severance. If you don’t play along, it can/will get VERY ugly for everyone.
So, the Godly move is to play along, write your letter, sign the contract, get the severance and move on with your life.
It was VERY difficult looking people in the eye and telling them your are leaving for x reason, when in truth, you got fired. Even heard accusations of being abandoned. Hurts on the inside and the leadership that fired you still looked like saints.
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First of all, if this happened to you, I’m truly sorry. I pray that you take proactive steps to heal. When a pastor is forced to resign, 7% of the time it’s because of his personal misconduct, and 45% of the time it’s because a minority faction pushed him out.
I don’t know if it’s the godly move to play along. It may seem like the least divisive way, or the easiest way, but I’m not sure it’s the godly way.
The governing board can violate labor laws and nothing will happen to them because Christians aren’t supposed to sue other Christians. It’s wrong, and we need to say it’s wrong. I believe that Christians lie when we cover up the real reasons why a pastor left, and that the pastor is lying if he states one reason why he’s leaving when it’s really something else. It’s better for the pastor to give multiple reasons than say what the board wants him to say.
The best solution is for the governing board to evaluate the pastor on a regular basis. If they have a problem with his performance or behavior, they need to tell him directly so he has time to fix any problem. But for many pastors who undergo a forced termination, the first time they hear that something is wrong is when they’re asked to resign. This is a political solution to the problem, not a biblical one. And let’s be honest: it’s because the governing board (a) are cowards, or (b) know they’re doing something wrong.
Jesus is into redemption, not destruction. He’s into truth telling, not truth concealing. We need to expose this epidemic in the Christian church, because that’s what it is. The biggest issue in every church isn’t, “Are we fulfilling the Great Commission?” but “Who’s in charge of this church?”
Thank you for writing. May God richly bless you.
Jim
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I am involved in a strange situation with a church. I have been asked to pastor a church that right now, is in turmoil. After several months of prayer, I was lead to accept. But there are things going on that I don’t know how to handle. To summarrize, the pastor resigned 3 years ago and started a new church. About 50 members left with him to start this new church. Their new church did not survive. They filed for dissolvement. The original church had yet to appoint a new pastor, even after several years. They relied on visiting ministers or members of what was left of the congregation. He returned as a visiting minister, along with the members who had left. The members of the church and the executive board and trustees were hesitant, but allowed them to return. But they never asked to become members of the church once again. They immediately tried to take control away from the executive board and the trustees. This church was founded in 1929. It owns the property and buildings outright. Completely debt free, with a large amount of money in the bank. The wife and mother in law of this pastor seem to be calling all the shots. They have tried to have officers, teachers, deacons, and trustees removed from office to be replaced with the people that had left the church originally. The founding members and trustees have tried to have him and these others removed. When they tried to do it in a church business meeting, the mother in law of the pastor tried to physically attack one of the trustees, an 89 year old woman whose family helped found the church in 1929. IT got very ugly and the police were called. These people are not actual members of this church. They gave that up when they formed their own church. Yet, they proclaim that they are members of the church and have a right to a vote. Myself and Co-Pastor have yet been able to assume the roles of pastor because of this turmoil. The trustees and executive board wants the pastor and the people he came with gone, but they refuse to leave and in fact out number the remaining members of the church, so a church vote did not go in the favor of those wanting him gone. It seems as if they are more concerned about the money and the property than they are about sheparding the flock. We consulted with an attorny and he is telling us that we need to gather 150 new members that will support the cause. That we need to rewrite the bi-laws of the church and need to file some sort of paperwork with the secretary of state’s office, here in Texas. We are at a loss. All my co-pastor and I and our families want to do is serve God and be able to restore this church. We both have been given confirmation that this is the path God has put us on. But we need help. How do you suggest we handle this? All the reading I have done has provided little help. Your blog popped up on a search and it appears to me that you may have some advice for us on how to proceed. Please help if you can. Thank you and God Bless.
Yours In Christ,
Charlie
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Hi Charlie,
Thank you so much for writing. I can sense how distressing this situation is for you. It sounds like you have a hostile takeover in the works. From what you wrote, I do have some ideas that I think can be helpful.
However, I need additional information and would like to ask you some questions first:
*What is your average attendance on Sundays – counting everybody on the campus?
*Is your church located in a city or in a rural area?
*Is your church independent or part of a denomination? If it’s part of a denomination, which one?
*Where does the final authority rest in your church – with the executive board, the trustees, the pastors, or the congregation?
*Do you and your co-pastor have equal authority in the church? Are you both serving on a full-time basis?
*When 50 members left your church to form the new church, what happened to their membership in your church? If they were dropped from membership, were they notified of that fact?
*Why did the previous pastor resign? How long was he at the church before he left?
*Why did the church he led dissolve? Why do his supporters think that his leadership will be different at your church?
I commend you for consulting with an attorney. That was a smart move. But I don’t know about the 150 members. How can your church attract newcomers when it’s in turmoil?
Would you be willing to send me a copy of your church’s constitution and bylaws? You can email it to me at jim@restoringkingdombuilders.org. I’d like to look it over and see if it offers any clues as to how to handle this situation.
Charlie, above all, STAY CALM! You are in a spiritual battle right now. Those who are angry and out of control will automatically lose. The church needs your non-anxious leadership now. This time will pass.
God bless you, Charlie. I’ll be praying for you and your church. I look forward to hearing from you soon.
Jim
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Jim,
As far as attendance on Sundays, somewhere between 70-80. We are located in the city. The church is Independent Baptist. I believe that the final authority is left in the hands of the executive board and trustees. I will have to review the bi-laws on that one. I am awaiting a copy to be emailed to me and I would be happy to send it to you as well. It is more of he is the pastor and I am the associate pastor, however, he prefers the co-pastor title instead of associate pastor. We have been working in ministry together for 10 years now. I guess you could consider us both full time. I have a job, he does not. I declined a salary and instead asked that it be put towards his or put back in the church. God is taking care of my family and our needs and we felt it was the right thing to do. The trustees did not seem to have a problem with it either. I do not know what happened to their membership when they left or if they were notified that they were dropped. That is a question I will have to ask the board. It is not quite clear as to why he resigned in the first place and from what I am given to understand, he was only at the church less than 2 years. I was told that his church dissolved because they ran out of money. I whole-heartedly agree with you. There is no way we can attract new members when there is strife amongst the current congregation. And he and I have about 40 people, family and friends that are waiting to come join us at the new church, but since we have not been able to assume the pulpit, we have not given them a date in which to start attending. Plus, we do not want to expose them to the turmoil and drama currently going on.
And I agree, there is a spiritual battle going on right now. We can all feel it. We are calm, rational people, that is for certain. Reading Isaiah 41:9-12 is a good reminder of the protection we have, as long as we stay faithful, the same with my favorite verse, Joshua 1:9. I want to thank you for offering your help. I knew writing to you was the right thing to do. And finding your blog was definitely no coincedence. I will get the bi-laws to you as soon as they are in my hands. Thank you again. And thank you for your prayers and support. I look forward to speaking with you soon. God Bless.
Yours In Christ,
Charlie
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Jim:
Your article was very informative and no doubt God lead me to it and you for guidance and advice. I have been attending a small church with an average attendance of 40-50 people each Sunday, for approximately 9 years. I became friends with the pastor who had been there for 24 years and as time passed I became more involved with the management of the church. The pastor asked me to help his adult daughter with the bookkeeping and he later created a business manager title and the members vote me in each year to continue that work. Last year the pastor, who is a widower of 3 years, was looking to retire and just before he did so, he began dating one of the members who’s divorce had technically not been completed and it split the church; many long time attendees who were not members left the church. We began a search for a new pastor in January 2013, thought we found a “great guy” to lead us, but in retrospect we really did not vet him thoroughly and the drama began. The bottom line issue between this pastor and the deacons is that he believes he is “Pastor” and he demands final say on all issues. Myself and our 4 deacons have told him repeatedly that he does not have final say and that he simply needs to run his ideas by the deacons before he implements them (a plurality of elders). He quickly made 4 or 5 changes like the order of service on Sunday, changed Sunday evening service from 6:00pm to 2:00pm, and inadvertently made our organ player of 35+ years feel as though she had been fired, etc. The issues are small in the scheme of things but it has caused major infighting, division and hurt feelings among members. The pastor continually quotes Matthew 18:15, yet will not yield to anyone who disagrees with him. Additionally the pastor has shown minimal effort on church projects and recently went off on a tirade of negative accusations towards myself and our senior deacon (elder) right in the middle of serving communion. Many were appalled by this and see it as the last straw; i.e. remove the pastor! He has only been with us for 4 months and the deacons have decided to let him go. I don’t have an ounce of your experience and I am in continual prayer about how to handle his dismissal. I like the idea of asking him to resign in exchange for a healthier severance, but I anticipate another outburst of defiance and attack on me and the deacons, telling us that we can’t do that, etc. What do you recommend we do? We are convinced that this man will not change as he is seemingly oblivious to his anger and control issues and never takes responsibility for any hurt feelings, projects gone bad, etc. Any advice or guidance will be greatly appreciated.
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Hi Tom,
My first reaction is that you can’t fix stupid. If a pastor institutes changes that are too abrupt, he’ll alienate much of the congregation. I’ll write more tomorrow.
Jim
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Tom,
Thanks again for writing. I am so sorry that you and your church are going through this experience.
While you may not have vetted the pastor thoroughly, you’re not the first church that’s made this mistake. How your leaders handle this moving forward will determine the future of your congregation.
When a pastor first comes to a church, he’s given a certain number of “poker chips.” Let’s say he’s given 100. As he does good things in the church, he gains more chips. If he does something stupid, he loses chips. If a pastor gains 150 chips, and loses 25 chips with an anger outburst, he still has 125 chips left, usually enough to survive. But if he loses too many chips in the first few months, it’s hard to survive. Seems like with his communion outburst, the pastor nearly cashed in his initial 100 chips.
Here are some questions for you and your leaders:
1. What do your constitution and bylaws say about removing a pastor? It’s essential that you follow your governing documents to the letter. When dealing with the pastor, let him know you’re strictly adhering to your governing documents.
2. Do you live in a “right to work” state or an “at will” state? You might go online to find this out or check with a labor attorney.
3. How does the rest of the church feel about removing the pastor from office? If most of them are in favor of it, in addition to the leaders, then you can probably keep the church united. My guess is that the pastor hasn’t been there long enough to develop a loyal following.
4. Who does the pastor ultimately work for: the deacons, another group, or the congregation? The deacons can always ask for his resignation, but if he refuses to resign, he may have the right to appeal to the congregation, and then you have a holy war on your hands. Do everything you can not to let it get to that point.
5. Do you have the money to give him a severance package? Since he’s only been there a few months, I wouldn’t give him more than 2-3 months. Although I advocate giving pastors a minimal 6-month severance package, that’s for pastors who have been in their churches for a few years, not a few months. Nobody will understand if you give a pastor 6 months if he’s only been in the church a few months.
6. Besides the pastor’s anger and control issues – which are not uncommon these days – does he have any redeemable qualities? Is he a good preacher? A good leader? Someone with a charming personality? Great with seniors? Is there anything there to build on for the future? If not, then you’re right … it’s probably time for the pastor to go.
I hear this refrain of pastors making abrupt changes all the time, and it’s usually a sign of anxiety on the part of the pastor. He believes that he needs to refashion the church so he’s comfortable with it, not realizing that by doing that, he’s making everyone else in the church uncomfortable. Most pastors need to institute change slowly, bringing everyone along at the same time. Sounds like your pastor didn’t respect your church enough to do that. He sent the message, “You guys are doing church all wrong. I’m going to correct your mistakes and do it right.” That attitude in a pastor is not appealing.
My counsel is to go by the Book (the Bible) and to go by the book (your governing documents) in a firm but calm manner. Whatever you do, STAY CALM. Do not fight fire with fire. Do not overreact. Do not try and destroy the pastor or you’ll destroy your church. Since you want God to bless your church in the future, treat the pastor in the fairest possible way … and make sure not to harm his reputation.
Take the attitude, “We wish things had worked out, but this wasn’t a good fit.” It’s better to admit it now than a year later when you don’t have much of a church left.
Tom, I hope my comments are helpful. Let me know if I can help you in any other way. God bless you as you deal with the pastor. I’ll be praying.
Jim
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Jim, cannot thank you enough for the excellent insight into what we are going through. If I may, I would like to provide a few more recent actions taken by the pastor and the deacons. As stated before, the deacons have met with the pastor on more than one occasion, imploring him to work as a member of the board of elders rather than insisting on having “final say (his words).” The voting members passed a petition stating the reasons for their dissatisfaction with the pastor including insensitivity to members and non-members, his attempt to immediately change our constitution to read that pastor can only be terminated for “continual heresy”, he is never in the office and slow to return calls, and his sermons were great in the beginning but have declined into mostly reading scripture to us. 17 of 22 members signed the petition and presented it to the deacons asking them to remove the pastor. Deacons held a meeting on 8/25 as a result of the petition and a controversy over the pastor demanding that he be paid vacation pay for when he took his family to Disney World 8/22 thru 8/31. As the business administrator, I denied the request as I believe most employees in America do not receive vacation pay until they have been in their position for at least 6 months. Initially, 3 of 4 deacons agreed with me but decided to allow the 4th deacon to decide and he told me to pay the pastor his weekly salary, minus the cost of that week’s guest pastor.
During the meeting on 8/25 I shared some of the stories of what this pastor does to me and the deacons in our meetings, yelling at us telling us how educated he is and how much experience he has and that’s why we should just allow him to do what he thinks is best and then we will see why he is right. He went on in the meetings telling us that if the church secretary whom he pushed out wants to come back to our church, she will have to stand before the congregation and apologize to him for spreading gossip, etc. She was actually telling the truth about his outbursts, lack of sensitivity and insatiable desire for control . . however, I do understand that even though she was correct in her assessment, that is still considered gossip as he was not present all of the time. His number one scripture is Matthew 18:15 which he tries to apply to anyone who does not agree with him. I personally followed Matthew 18:15 with the church secretary; she met with him, he said he would not change. She then brought me in to mediate between them and he again refused to back off of his demand for final say. We then brought this to him with the deacons and he again refused to agree with our request that he work with the deacons.
Most recently, he has been telling everyone that the only issue in our church is that the deacons are making a big to do over a silly issue of which of our two hymnals we should use. During the meeting on 8/25 the members listened to the facts I presented and quickly agreed that they would like us to have a similar meeting with the non-members present so that they could hear both sides of the controversy going on between the pastor and the deacons. When the pastor was told that this meeting would be held tomorrow 9/8 after church, he immediately called his own meeting for Wednesday night, in place of our normally scheduled prayer meeting. 8 people showed up and listened to him go on for 2 hours with a litany of lies and accusations about me and our eldest deacon, asking us to step down from our positions. The interesting part of that meeting is that he brought another pastor in, the guy he used for guest speaker last week, to support his cause and add to the bashing of myself and the 87 year old deacon. This guy knows nothing about our church? ?The deacon and myself believe that there may be some sort of power play going on here where these two people, relative strangers to our church, are trying to take over our church by removing all of the current leaders, but we cannot prove any of that at this time.
Again, please share your insights and any advice you may have. I am quick to admit that I not that experienced with church things, but my heart and spirit are crying out for me to keep fighting. It would be SO much easier for me to just walk away, but every time I have that thought God immediately puts Jonah in my mind and I know that I must stay in the game. The average age of our members is 70-80 and I just don’t want these 40-50 year old guys coming in to steal their church from them.
Thank you in advance for your comments.
-Tom
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Hi Tom,
These situations make our hearts sad, but like you said, God doesn’t necessarily want us to walk away. Your church has a future.
It sounds to me like the pastor came to the church with the idea of taking control and running it unilaterally. He sized up the church’s size and attendees and concluded that he could get his way through bullying. I’m not sure what he’s trying to accomplish. Is he trying to clear out the seniors and reach younger people? Or is he trying to clear out the church so he’s the last one standing … maybe so he can “own” the church and its property and sell it for his own benefit? I’m just speculating right now. What do you think he’s trying to do?
There are pastors who believe that they need to assert their preferences as soon as they come to a church, but I think that’s vocational suicide. You have to serve people well before they give you authority. As Jesus said in Mark 10:45, the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve. Serve people well, and a few years later, they’ll follow you anywhere. But you can’t insist that people follow you anywhere when you first come to a church.
I’m not sure what the “final say” means. Yes, a pastor has been called by God. Yes, a pastor usually has received theological training. Yes, a pastor is considered by many to be a “professional.” But a pastor must be sensitive to the needs of the people he’s serving. If the pastor wanted people to show up for a service at 2 am, nobody would show up, even if the pastor claimed that’s when the service should be held. Leadership is serving people well, not dominating people. This pastor may have skipped Leadership 101 in seminary.
Let me advise you to do something that you may not have considered. Find the pastor’s resume and contact board members from previous churches. Without divulging all that’s happening at your church, ask several pointed questions about how he behaved in previous ministries … especially how he left those churches. I suspect there’s a pattern there. If you can find that pattern, you’ll know better how to handle matters.
There are two kinds of people in this world: neurotics and people with character disorders. Neurotics take too much responsibility for what happens in their lives, blaming themselves for everything. People with character disorders fail to take responsibility for what goes on in their lives, reflexively blaming others instead. Catch them red-handed on video and they’ll still deny they did anything wrong.
Church leaders can’t work with a pastor with a character disorder (like paranoia, narcissism, or sociopathy) because (a) they never admit they do anything wrong, (b) you can’t get close to them (because they’re not vulnerable), and (c) they’re always blaming others for their mistakes. They feel they need to come off as perfect or they’ll be fired.
If you sense this is going to be a power struggle, contact an attorney ASAP and give him a copy of your governing documents. Let him advise you. If anyone asks, you can say you’re following the advice of your attorney.
As far as Matthew 18:15 goes, that’s for personal sin. It doesn’t apply to church policy. If the pastor has wronged you personally, you need to speak with him about his offense. However, as Jesus says, the aim is to “win” the offender over to your side, to repair your personal relationship. Matthew 18:15 does not apply to changing service times unilaterally.
As far as not being around, my guess is that the pastor is putting his energies into looking for another ministry. If you want to have a legitimate public reason for dismissing him, ask the deacons to tell him that he needs to be in the office on certain days during certain times and that if he isn’t, that’s grounds for dismissal. EVERYBODY understands that you need to show up for work. He’s probably working from home because he’s calling other Christian leaders trying to find another job. I think he senses the handwriting on the wall. He’s acting with desperation.
By the way, most church constitutions state that in case of a dispute, the party that adheres to the constitution wins. Look for that clause and document the pastor’s violations of the constitution and bylaws.
Can you answer several more questions for me?
Is your church part of a denomination?
Are you in a rural area or a city?
Where did the pastor go to seminary?
If you’re having a meeting tomorrow, I advise that you videotape it. There’s going to be a lot of “he said, she said” afterwards.
God bless you, Tom.
Jim
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Jim:
Here are my answers to your questions:
1. Is our church part of a denomination?
We were a Baptist church before the new pastor came in and he recommended that we change our name from “Blank Baptist” to “Blank Bible”. The members and myself never really felt as though we were a Baptist church, rather we felt more like a non-denominational church that focused on the Bible teachings, so we all agreed that this name change might help us grow.
2. Are we in rural or city area?
We are outside of a major U.S. city, however I would characterize the area as being a mix of suburban & rural.
3. Pastor went to Northland International University; BA in Pastoral Studies
Regarding your idea of contacting the church where he preached before coming to ours . . I did that last week, spoke with one of the four female leaders and casually asked her to share her experience with this pastor. The first words out of her mouth were, Well, I would have to say it was a dictatorship. He wanted to control everything and if you didn’t do what he said he got angry. She told me that he verbally attacked her elderly mother so they both stopped going to this church and he later did the same to some other older woman at the church. I gave the woman great credit for voluntarily admitting that her and the other 3 women leaders were overly picky about things like telling him to use the two steps to get up in the pulpit versus stepping up in the middle or telling him not to move the light connected to the podium because they like that look in the pulpit. When the pastor was candidating for our position, he told us about his experience at that church, but only of the picayune demands of these women. In his meeting on 9/4 with his 8 followers, he goes on to demonize these women and this church as being sinful and this is why they will never grow and probably close up. Said these things more than once.
Question to you: I will absolutely do all I can to help the pastor maintain his dignity and not deliberately tarnish him, but he has been on a rampage demonizing me and the elder deacon with vague claims of us gossiping, etc. How do I present two moments where he flat out lied to me and once to the congregation? Or do I not bring those things out? I would do so to clear my name and that of the deacon, but I totally agree with you that we do not want to split the congregation further. Please advise.
Tom
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Hi Tom,
Do you know much about Northland International University? Would their faculty in Bible and theology have taught this method of “leading” a church? It’s something to consider.
I was in interim pastor in a Baptist church last year and that group of Baptist churches gave their pastors an awful lot of authority. Maybe he came to the church expecting that kind of authority and was surprised that your church didn’t go along with that arrangement.
As far as the pastor’s lying about you and demonizing you:
*I’ve been appalled by the amount of lying I’m running across in Christian circles right now. When they’re in a corner, people lie (a) to cover up their involvement in something sordid, and (b) exaggerate wrongdoing on the part of their opponents.
*Those who know you probably won’t believe any lies the pastor tells about you. But I would encourage you to identify those in the church whose opinions matter to you and to contact them directly, ask what they’ve heard, and then tell them your side. Make sure the deacons know your side as well. Let them straighten out the others.
I’ve been falsely accused of misdeeds and it’s wounded me to the core, so I understand how you feel.
Right now, the issue is the pastor and his misbehavior. After he’s gone, you should be able to deal with any mistruths told about you.
Just a thought: you know Satan is involved in a church conflict – and he’s not involved all of them – when there’s deception and destruction involved (John 8:44). Seems like the devil is involved in your situation. Many Christians believe that unity trumps truth, but I believe that the NT teaches that truth trumps unity and is the basis for unity. In all places and with all people, tell the truth, and you’ll ultimately emerge the winner, although some people may choose to believe the lies. The truth will set your church free … but just make sure to tell the truth in love.
Please let me know how the meeting goes tomorrow.
I wrote a book about a conflict that I experienced in a church 4 years ago. You can download it as an e-book from Amazon. It’s called Church Coup. I spend a lot of time writing about the biblical way to handle accusations against a pastor. In my case, neither the Bible nor the governing documents were used. 95% of the church supported me, and the opposition was covert … and everything climaxed on Halloween.
Jim
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Hello Jim:
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. We had the church meeting last week and kindly presented the true underlying issues between the pastor and the deacons. Many of the members and non-members present voiced their opinions and concerns and we appeared to have a constructive, informative meeting taking place. Then the pastor stood up and began to single people out one by one for what he believed they were doing to undermine his “final say” role as pastor. Most of these people argued back and were noticeably hurt and said they are not coming back. Pastor then announced to the church that he is recommending that Tom (me) and the Ed (Sr. Deacon) step down from our positions and repent for all of the bad things we did and “Maybe” we can come back later to resume our duties. Unfortunately for the pastor, MANY people spoke out strongly about the work Ed and I have done over the years and how ridiculous his suggestion was. The one deacon that appeared to be supporting the pastor up until that point immediately blurted out “That’s not going to happen!” Needless to say, that was a bit gratifying to see that our efforts were actually noticed over the years. Discussions with some of the members after the meeting revealed that they saw the pastor’s recommendation as an attempt to take over the finances of the church and assume total control over all activities once Tom and Ed are out of the way.
It now appears as though the deacons have decided to remove the pastor from our church and begin the search for a new pastor. However, I must tell you that even after the pastor recommended that I be removed as Business Administrator, I somehow had a feeling in my heart that the deacons should not act so quickly and give the pastor another chance to see what he is doing and change. I spoke with each of the deacons separately and each one strongly told me that this man will not change and they feel that he is trying to take our church from the old members and turn it into a more modern church in hope of attracting younger members, etc. I too do not believe that he will change as I do not see him leaning on God for guidance, rather he is consumed by his title and view of how all of the pastors in his past had total control of their church.
Do you believe that most pastors believe in or act with “single authority” or do they understand the Bible concept of “plurality of elders” authority?
I must thank you for the advice you provided in your original article that I read where you advised us that in the event we do choose to remove a pastor, that we should do so in a kind and loving fashion so as to preserve his dignity and to provide as much severance pay as possible. I have taken your message to the board of deacons and told them to put their anger aside and make sure that we do in fact follow your advice, treating the pastor with forgiveness and a generous heart. Easier said than done under these circumstances, but I am committed to following your advice for the godly removal of our pastor.
Thank you for guiding us through this difficult time !
-Tom
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Not only does this happen to senior pastors but to other staff ministers as well. I was terminated last Thurs. the sad part is the Pastor is behind this.
Whitney
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Whitney,
Write me at jim@restoringkingdombuilders.org and tell me what happened. I will be glad to listen and may be able to be of some assistance.
Jim Meyer
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What about the idea of asking a pastor (accused of lording it over the flock via bullying, anger, pride,etc) to step down after an accusation is made and investigated…but keep him on payroll with hopes to restore him?
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Thanks for writing, Charles.
The term I would use is “leave of absence.” The official board of the church could ask the pastor to take a leave of absence to receive counseling/treatment for any major issues in his life that are negatively impacting his ability to lead/pastor. There are many retreat centers for pastors in the US, so maybe the pastor could go there for a few weeks, with the church picking up the tab. Or the pastor could take several weeks off and begin a counseling regimen that might open his eyes to the way he’s coming across to others.
Many pastors in church ministry are very goal-oriented. They want to do as much good as possible within a short time, and when their goals are blocked, they become frustrated and engage in behavior that is counterproductive. I think it’s an excellent idea to ask the pastor to take some time off and deal with those issues in his life and ministry. It shows that you believe in the pastor’s character and abilities and that you’re willing to invest in his future. But if you do it, you need everything planned in advance so the pastor knows you’re serious.
Let me know how things work out!
Jim
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As secretary of my church, I have been directed by our Board to write a letter informing the pastor that she is being relieved of her duties after members voted during an election.
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I hope the board isn’t asking you to do this because they are too cowardly to do it themselves. And I hope the board signs the letter instead of you. They really should do this, not you. It puts you in a very awkward position.
Whenever a pastor is being dismissed, that act should be done by the pastor’s supervisor(s) … in person … not just through a letter. Once again, I hope that the board meets with your pastor and doesn’t just send her a letter.
Thank you for writing me. I pray that things work out.
Jim
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My pastor has been serving our body for several years. Membership was around 350 and we had two services that were full. Since then, 200 have left, but in truth today less than 60 were in attendance at our only surviving service. We are in a deficit of tens of thousands of dollars which is noteable and of historical proportions. He was previously on a plan of assistance a few years ago, the details of which I am unaware. There has been constant friction and two more families have left the church in the past 3 weeks. I am on the spiritual council of our church and while I truly love this man and his family, and know he has a heart for the lost, I believe he is not a good fit for this body and he should be asked to resign. Even if I wanted him to stay we would not be able to pay him or the rest of the staff as we will not have enough funds to keep the church going. I believe it is way past time to advocate for him and if he doesn’t resign I am ready to ask for a vote from the rest of the council members to remove him via a vote from the congregation as is written in our bylaws. I am praying for confirmation.
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I am sorry this has happened to your church. When people begin to leave in droves, it’s never a good sign for a church. You may very well be right that “he is a not a good fit for this body and he should be asked to resign.”
I’ve posted several articles about what you’re describing:
https://blog.restoringkingdombuilders.org/2015/07/22/when-should-the-pastor-of-a-church-in-steep-decline-leave/
https://blog.restoringkingdombuilders.org/2015/09/29/turning-around-a-declinling-church/
Doesn’t the pastor see what’s happening around him? I’d be shocked if he wasn’t already searching for a new position … but at this point in time, who would want him?
I don’t think you need to advocate for him. I do think you need to treat him and his family wisely and compassionately. I will be praying that you do just that.
If you’d like to speak further, we can set up an appointment to talk. Please write me at jim@restoringkingdombuilders.org
Jim
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Hello I’m a new member to the church I attend and I have found out that the board has decided to let our Pastor go. Can they do that? And as members do with have the right to fight their decision? Please help I feel like I’m losing my Spiritual Father.
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Greetings! Thanks so much for writing. Can the board let the pastor go? It all depends upon what the constitution and bylaws of the church say about termination. In some churches, the board can make the decision unilaterally. In other churches, the congregation has to vote to accept the pastor’s termination or resignation.
I would encourage you to do several things:
First, if you became an official member, then you have the right to see the constitution/bylaws. Call the church office and ask for a copy. If they won’t give it to you, then there’s a cover up going on. If you can’t get one from the office, ask around and see who in the church has one you can look at. Find the section on the removal of the pastor from office. If your church doesn’t have any governing documents, then yes, the board can do whatever they want, and they know it.
Second, ask this question over and over again: WHAT PROCESS WAS USED TO LET THE PASTOR GO? Was it a biblical process? Was it according to the constitution and bylaws? You want to make sure that the board handled matters fairly. Many times, church boards make up the process just to get rid of a pastor they don’t like. Ask the question of staff members, board members, and church leaders that you know. Write down what they say afterward. Ask them for a copy of the process. You have every right as a member to receive this information.
The issue is NOT, “What did the pastor do wrong?” The issue is, “What process was used to dismiss the pastor?” Don’t even listen to any charges against the pastor until you know the process that was used to dismiss him. Sometimes a church bully or a faction in the church push out the pastor because they can’t control him. You can often find this out by asking about the process.
Third, see if you can find out the pastor’s side of things. How do you do that? Find out who knows the pastor, his wife, or his children and see what they’re saying. Many church boards give the pastor a severance package in exchange for his agreement not to talk about his dismissal, but I guarantee that if you persist, you can find out the truth. It all depends upon how much you want to pursue things.
Fourth, DO NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU HEAR. Most church members believe the first thing they’re told about why their pastor left and then they go away. Dig deeper. The board may have a legitimate reason for dismissing the pastor, but you want to find out what it is. The board should not hide it from the church. But once you hear the board’s side, test what they say and find out the pastor’s side as well. I don’t like saying this, but Christians – even leaders – will lie just to get rid of a pastor. I know this firsthand. If you find out the leaders are lying, God can’t and won’t bless the church.
Can you fight the decision? You can make a lot of noise until the board tells the church why they did what they did, but it could get ugly. You can join a group and try and vote out the board, but that rarely works. I would encourage you to keep your inquiries to as few people as possible. Don’t join a faction or a group that wants to fight back. Find out the truth and either stay in the church and support it wholeheartedly or leave and find another one.
Pastors all over our country are being forced out of their positions at an alarming rate. It’s an epidemic. Many of the best pastors are among this group. The issue is usually power and control. The board wants more control, the pastor resists, and the board pushes him out. I believe the pastor is the professional and the board members are usually amateurs. This doesn’t mean that the pastor is always right … we all have our blind spots … but that much of the time, the amateurs fire the professional because he won’t do what they want.
I wrote a book called Church Coup about my own experience. It’s on Amazon. It might be helpful to you. The book describes what goes on behind the scenes during these conflicts.
Would you write me and let me know what’s happening in the days ahead? Send your note to me at jim@restoringkingdombuilders.org
Thank you!
Jim Meyer
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Hello!
What do you do when a pastor states that he is above the bylaws and acts accordingly? It’s way too much to mention, but in short he says that he can do what he wants because he is the founding pastor. He is constantly attacking the Asst. Pastor and has told him that he can not return to the pulpit or church for that matter. The only reason that everyone can sense is jealousy because more people relate to the Asst. Pastor’s way of delivery. He breaks the scriptures down word for word, and he’s not afraid to stand up for right and speak his mind when things are done that violates the Word, the bylaws, and the congregation. When the Pastor is asked for his reason of trying to remove the Asst. Pastor, he gives none and only says that he has to do what God instructed him to do. When reminded that the congregation has a say so according to the bylaws, he totally dismisses it and says that his mind is made up. Lately he has been harassing not only the Asst. Pastor but members of the congregation through text messages and phone calls. We feel as though we have a tyrant on our hands. He has been misappropriating funds by making purchases that are not authorized through the church (part of the bylaws) and says that he has the final say. Once again his very words were that he’s above the bylaws and that he can not be dismissed because he is the founding Pastor and what he says is final.
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Greetings,
Can you answer a few questions for me? Then I’ll be able to answer you accordingly.
*Is your church connected to any denomination?
*What do your governing documents say about how the church is governed? Is it ruled by the pastor? By elders/deacons/a board? By the congregation?
*How long has the pastor been at your church?
*How is your church doing right now? Is it growing, shrinking, or stagnating?
*What do you think would happen if several top leaders confronted the pastor about his behavior?
BJ, if you’ll answer those questions for me, I’ll be glad to help you further.
You can write me at jim@restoringkingdombuilders.org
Jim Meyer
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Our pastor is too sick. We are rural. He has not preached in over a year. We are rural. He lives 40 miles away in a city. We only have 6 attending members. We don’t know what to do.
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Kathy, I’m sorry for your situation. May I ask you some questions?
Is your church affiliated with a denomination or are you independent?
How long has your church been in existence?
If the pastor isn’t well and hasn’t been to the church in a long time, why hasn’t he resigned?
Have your attending members thought of joining with another church nearby?
Let’s see if we can dialogue together.
Jim
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Very helpful information for what I’m seeing at our church currently! An additional problem to in appropriate anger is that only one of the three deacons is willing to confront the pastor even though they have all witnessed episodes of inappropriate anger. The 2 who won’t address it are ‘peacekeepers’ in their own eyes. On at least on one occasion, the pastor denied an accusation made by the church treasurer yet she insists she was not lying.
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John, I encourage someone the pastor loves and trusts to do the confronting. Just one person at first as Matthew 18:15 specifies. It should be someone who witnessed one or two incidents … and the pastor should be confronted as soon after he gets angry as possible. Only escalate matters if the pastor refuses to acknowledge any wrongdoing. Most of the time, I don’t think a pastor should be fired for getting angry unless he becomes abusive on a regular basis. I could give you a list of great Christians who struggled with their anger and we revere them today. Some church boards/deacons don’t address the pastor’s anger when it first happens, then collect several more incidents of anger as a way to run the pastor out of the church. But if the pastor had been confronted after the first incident, maybe he wouldn’t have become angry after that. I realize I may not have the whole story, but work the process as Matthew 18:15-17 and 1 Timothy 5:17-19 specifies and the result should be much more favorable. God bless you as you seek to honor Him!
Jim
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My family and I have been a member of a church for nine years now but two years ago a new pastor and his wife became the lead pastor of the church and since day one they did NOT like my family and I for no reason. They harassed our children’s pastor until she resigned and they laughed at her on her last day and my family is very close to the children’s pastor so we were naturally crying on her last day and they did not like that. Since then they have given us dirty looks and death stares and refused to greet us or to acknowledge us when we say hello to them. We invited them to our home for dinner but the pastors wife left my moms text on read and never replied to this day. Flash forward to two days ago, we were at church for a meeting to discuss a new “pastor” who has been very damaging in the church, this person has been constantly gossiping about members of the church and saying bad stuff about people that have left the church because of them to another church. The lead pastors had set up the meeting and we all went there expecting to have a civil conversation with them about removing the new pastor from our church. The lead pastor and his wife were VERY hostile and angry towards us, especially my family, and would not let us talk at all, they told us to “stop talking” and “sit down” “you’re not allowed to talk” and it was extremely rude. They proceeded to shame us and accusing us of gossiping in a very inappropriate manner. This pastor and his wife are the worst people I have ever met. It pains me to see a church that I’ve loved for so long and grew up in be destroyed by people like this. When my father was trying to speak and the pastors wife shouted at him to “get out” and it was probably the worst moment of my entire life. The most ungodly people and I don’t understand how they are in such a sacred position. I see the devil in them and I have never said this about anybody else. I had a vision that the devil was inside them doing his best to decide our church. If anyone knows how I can ask to get them removed from our church please contact me. About 80% of our church thing the same but non of us know what to do. Please pray for our church.
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Hi Taylor, I’m so sorry for what you’re going through. It’s very difficult to stay sane and be spiritual when you’re so upset.
I would encourage you to locate a copy of your church’s governing documents, usually called the constitution and bylaws. See if there is a section on removing a pastor. If there is, follow what is written. If there isn’t, then some church leaders need to contact the leaders of a few churches that are similar to yours and see if they have a document that discusses how to remove a pastor.
My strong conviction is that if you don’t like your pastor, and you’re so uncomfortable in his presence, it might be better for you to leave your church and find another church where you are comfortable.
When you’re so upset, and your emotions are going haywire, the temptation is for you to want the pastor to leave … or for you and some friends to kick him out. But that kind of a process often takes a long time, and it can split your church or at least harm it greatly.
You might consider contacting a church leader – maybe someone on the governing board – that you can speak with about your concerns.
God bless you! And if you’d like to speak further, you can write me at jim@restoringkingdombuilders.org.
Jim
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A big problem I see with evangelical Protestantism, as evidenced here, is the polity of their churches. The lack of ecclesiastical oversight, and parishioners being their own “Pope”, is precisely one of many reasons why I fled evangelicalism 23 years ago after being born into it, and spending my first 40 years of life in it. I changed denominations, and only regret not doing it sooner in life.
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Thank you for your thoughts, Antonio. I believe that denominations are more political than spiritual and that if you don’t kiss up to the top leaders, and you’re in any kind of conflict, they will stand against you. While congregational polity has its pitfalls – and I can tell you about them firsthand – I prefer it to any top-down authority which I don’t find in Scripture. God bless you in your journey.
Jim
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