I wanted to walk out of church last Sunday morning.
All because of a song.
During last Sunday’s praise and worship time at the church Kim and I have been attending, I became very uncomfortable because we kept repeating the same phrase while singing a popular worship song called “King of My Heart.”
Two Sundays ago, the worship team led the congregation in singing this song.
And I noticed that one phrase was repeated 22 times:
“You are good, good, oh” … which means we sang the word “good” 44 times.
Then last Sunday, they sang the song once more! (As the song was starting, I turned to Kim and said, “Oh, no, not again.”)
Just in case singing this phrase over and over was an aberration, I decided to go online and see if I could find a video of a praise and worship band singing the song.
I did.
By my count, they sang the phrase, “You are good, good, oh” 24 times … and the phrase “You’re never gonna let, never gonna let me go” 16 times … in the same song.
You might like this … but it drives me nuts … so much so that I wanted to run out of the service, get in my car, and drive … anywhere.
I remember when praise songs first came from Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa in the mid-1970s. We’d sing a song twice and some older people would get upset, claiming that singing the song several times consisted of vain repetition.
What would they think now?
In a blog that’s usually devoted to resolving conflict, I may be creating more conflict than I’m helping to resolve … but I feel strongly about this issue even though some might consider me nit-picky, ungodly, or nearly heretical.
Since this isn’t the only song that relies on the repetition of certain phrases, why are Christians writing and singing songs with such repetitive lyrics?
I don’t know … so I’m going to make three guesses:
First, we need to repeat those phrases for God’s benefit.
But God knows He’s good. He doesn’t need us to remind Him.
Yes, He likes it when we recite His attributes … whether in prayer or in song … but the biblical pattern is to recite many of His attributes at once, not just to focus on one.
For example, in 1 Timothy 1:17, Paul writes, “Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
Or in Jude 25, Jesus’ half-brother writes, “… to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord; before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.”
But do we have biblical evidence that God doesn’t like His people repeating phrases?
In Matthew 6:7-8, Jesus said:
“And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.”
The song “King of My Heart” is certainly written as a prayer because it’s directed to God. While I don’t think that singing “You are good, good, oh” necessarily rates as babbling, the constant repetition of phrases does seem to fall into the category of “many words.”
In light of Jesus’ instructions, can we at least think twice about singing so many phrases over and over?
We also have nearly zero examples in the Bible of such repetition during worship. For example, we have 150 psalms, yet there is only one where I can detect a repetitive phrase … in Psalm 136 … where the phrase, “His love endures forever” is found at the end of all 26 verses.
But one example hardly a pattern makes.
I tell my wife that I love her all the time, and when I do, I try and do it with a degree of creativity. But what would she think if I turned to her and said:
You are good, good, oh
You are good, good, oh
You are good, good, oh
You are good, good, oh
So why do we do that with God? Could we even be boring Him?
Second, we need to repeat those phrases for our own benefit.
When we’re singing the phrase, “You are good, good, oh” repeatedly, I wonder if we’re doing it for ourselves.
Maybe we don’t really believe God is good, but if we sing it and sing it and sing it and sing it out aloud … and loudly … maybe we’ll start believing it.
But how many times do we need to sing that phrase before we do believe it? 8 times? 12? 16?
24 times? Really?
I once attended a workshop led by one of America’s best-known worship leaders. He told us that he would initially select the songs for the following Sunday, then submit them to his pastor, who would either approve his selections or cross out certain songs and replace them with others.
The worship leader told us that the previous Sunday, the pastor had crossed out all of the songs he proposed.
This is one I’d be tempted to cross out myself.
I think the song “King of My Heart” is an okay song (my apologies if it’s one of your favorites) … but if I were pastoring again, and the worship leader proposed that song to me, I’d say, “We’re singing the phrase ‘You are good, good, oh’ a maximum of 8 times, and ‘You’re never gonna let, never gonna let me down’ 4 times, and that’s it. If you can’t live with that, we’re not going to do it.”
I banned the song “Draw Me Close to You” at my last church because I felt the song didn’t appeal to men … and that leads me to my third guess:
Third, we need to repeat those phrases so we can feel something.
And this is what I think is really going on.
Without actually saying it, I believe that in many churches, the praise and worship time is considered to be the emotional time of the service, while the preaching is viewed as the intellectual part.
So during the emotional part of the service, it’s okay for any technique to be employed just so people feel that elusive “worship high” … an indication they’ve connected with God.
And repeating a phrase is one of those techniques.
On the video I watched online of a church’s worship band playing this song, I noticed that the song started quietly … built up to a place where the singers were nearly shouting, like in a power ballad … and then ended quietly.
Everyone had their eyes closed. Some of the singers were going through various bodily gyrations with their hands raised.
The purpose of the song didn’t seem to involve reciting truth, but inciting feeling.
Could we be using phrases like mantras? Certainly transcendental meditation relies upon the repetition of words and phrases.
In his book Why Men Hate Going to Church, David Murrow contrasts “old worship” (the kind many of us grew up with) with “new worship” (what he calls P&W … praise and worship):
“The old worship was formal, corporate, and emotionless. The new worship is informal, individualistic, and touchy-feely. The old worship was about coming together to extol God; the new worship is about coming together to experience God. The target of worship has fallen half a meter – from the head to the heart.”
Maybe, as Murrow says, I respond negatively to songs like this because I’m a man. He believes that praise and worship music “has harmed men’s worship more than it has helped.” Murrow writes:
“Before P&W, Christians sang hymns about God. But P&W songs are mostly sung to God. The difference may seem subtle, yet it completely changes how worshipers relate to the Almighty. P&W introduced a familiarity and intimacy with God that’s absent in many hymns.” (“In the Garden” being a noted exception.)
Murrow then summarizes his observations:
“With hymns, God is out there. He’s big. Powerful. Dangerous. He’s a leader. With P&W, God is at my side. He’s close. Intimate. Safe. He’s a lover.”
Murrow then puts his finger on how many men feel … including me:
“The great hymns summon men to the battlefield – but many of today’s P&W songs seem to be summoning men to the bedroom. Some contain man-love imagery that’s plainly uncomfortable for men…. Lovey-dovey praise songs force a man to express his affection to God using words he would never, ever, ever say to another guy. Even a guy he loves. Even a guy named Jesus.”
His conclusion:
“The Bible never describes our love for God in such erotic terms. The men of Scripture loved God, but they were never desperate for him or in love with him. Men are looking for a male leader – not a male lover.”
My own view of worship is that:
*Every song should start with biblical truth and that our emotions should be a response to that truth. There should never be a time when we’re simply emotional without engaging our minds.
One passage that can give us guidance is 1 Corinthians 14, where the context is public worship.
Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 14:15, “So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.”
He adds in 14:19, “But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.”
And then he adds in 14:20, “Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.”
*The preaching time should also be characterized by biblical truth first, emotion second. As Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones used to say, preaching may be defined as “logic on fire!”
I’ve heard some mindless sermons that simply tried to engage people’s emotions, but also I’ve heard plenty of sermons that espoused truth but lacked any semblance of passion.
We need truth first … followed by emotion … in all of our worship experiences.
I love many … not all … of the old hymns, and I also love many of the newer praise and worship songs … although I have a bias for the songs from the 1990s.
But as I get older, I have to admit, I’m leaning more toward hymns with rich theology … and away from newer songs that are more emotional and repetitive.
_______________
My wife and I recently perused the book Hymns: Inspiring Stories About 600 Hymns and Praise Songs, written by William J. Petersen & Ardythe Petersen.
I’d read aloud the stories behind the writing of some of the songs to my wife, and then without looking at the lyrics, we’d just start singing them … including some I haven’t sung for 50 years.
And we’d cry …. and barely be able to get through some of them.
We know those songs so well because we sang them so many times in the past, even if we haven’t sung them for decades.
But those songs rarely if ever repeated the same phrase over and over again … unless we were singing “Deep and Wide” while using motions.
How about you? Do you like singing the same phrases over and over?
And if so, how much is too much?
I’m curious.
Restoring Kingdom Builders 
Music played in churches is a tough topic. There is often conflict in churches over music. People will choose a church by the style of music that is played. I believe this is because the style of music a person prefers is so very personal. And as we get older, many of us long for the music of our youth and have a hard time with newer styles. It is not uncommon for me to hear an older person say that they wished we played more hymns in church, while a younger person wants to hear songs by Toby Mac.
What I think would be interesting would be to find out if the majority of attendees felt the same way you did, and just did not say anything to the pastor.
I agree that worship songs of any style should not have “romantic” bent to them…I know the song you mentioned, and even as a woman I felt very uncomfortable when it was played in church. I have not heard it played in many years. It just is not appropriate on any level.
As far as repeating lyrics, I can’t really put a number on it. I think it depends on the song, the venue, and if it is just too long or too much, and that level is simply just different from person to person. I just “know” when I have had enough. And there are some songs, such as “Every Praise” when I never feel that way because it is joyful and uplifting.
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Ce Ce, thanks for your excellent and intelligent response to my article. I was talking with my daughter Sarah many months ago, and I asked her, “Why are so many churches doing songs that last eight to ten minutes each?” Her reply? “Hillsong.” Evidently they’re having a huge influence over worship leaders and therefore worship services. I think this is a mistake because I don’t think churches should have cookie-cutter services, but many churches choose to follow others that seem to be “successful.”
I’m okay with edgier styles of music if the lyrics are good, but too many of them come across as either generic (little thought or creativity to the words) or senseless.
Our daughter attends a church in Northern California where I just love the music. The songs are lyrically rich … far more than the “God is good, God is great, God is gracious” kind of lyric … and yet very singable. The songs seem to come from a completely different tradition, and they’re not only meaningful, they’re moving. I wish I could find a church down here who does that kind of music.
The key to the appropriateness of music in any church is to see how many people are actually singing. In my case, I won’t sing any lyrics that are biblically or theologically inaccurate (we sang a biblically inaccurate lyric at the same service where we did 22 “God is good, good, oh” phrases) or that require me to become strictly emotional and turn off my brain.
My son, who is a fine Christian, threatened to stop going to church when his church kept doing a song that mentioned the smell of Jesus’ fragrance. As a man, he didn’t want to sing it, yet didn’t want to say anything negative to anyone. If you criticize the music, you can easily get labeled as “unspiritual.”
When I was a pastor, I made my feelings about music known either during our planning meetings before the service, or in our written evaluations the day after the service. That gave us two checks on everything that was sung. I somehow doubt that most churches do any evaluation of the music anymore.
I love all kinds of music, and even listen to George Beverly Shea sometimes. I love the old hymns, and I also like some newer songs, but I feel that the newer songs largely sound the same. Maybe it’s just my age.
As a counterbalance to the article I just wrote, I’m thinking about sharing a few stories about how some hymns were written. Many of them are very moving and should be included in worship services today.
Thanks again for writing!
Jim
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I agree!
Repeating the lyrics is tied to emotions, it feels like chanting.
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Thanks for your comment, Michelle. I hadn’t thought of using the word “chanting,” but I think you’re right, sometimes it feels that way. Hope you’re doing well!
Jim
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I’m coming in a bit late here but actually found your comments as I did a search for this very topic — repetitive lyrics in praise/worship music. Why? Because last night as I stood w/my two teenagers in church, I suddenly decided midstream that I was bored, yes BORED, with singing the same few lyrics of a song over & over! And it occurred to me to look around and, yep, everybody else looked bored too. No wonder people stand there not singing and looking so unamused, as though they were at a CONCERT being entertained rather than singing themselves and actively participating in the service. Yes, perhaps that simple lyric would be fine once or twice, but when it is repeated multiple times it loses its significance and is just meaningless words. Granted, I am not a “young person” but, hey, I have teenagers and I keep up just fine with them and can tell you all about the latest cool singers. And I, too, love ALL kinds of music. I suppose that is exactly why I appreciate traditional hymns — they have several verses, all different, and the lyrics are generally have a depth & richness to them that is sorely lacking in the new praise & worship music. I guess in the era of dark churches and light shows, fog machines, etc., this is par for the course but I do agree that these simple, redundant lyrics are more about making US feel good and whipping people into an emotional state than about glorifying God.
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Back in the 1970s, when praise songs and choruses first came out of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa,
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Thanks for your comment! Based on 40+ years of watching worship trends, I think the repetitive lyrics are designed to help us feel something … to connect with God in some way. Unfortunately, they have the opposite effect with many of us … and I agree with you 100% on the hymns!
Jim
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It is such a relief to see someone articulate the same thoughts that I have often had about modern repetitive P&W songs, and to do so in a gentle, thoughtful, and scripture-based way.
My thinking – when there are so many good things to say, and sing, about our wonderful God, why would you need to repeat the same thing 24 times?
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John, we’re in agreement on this topic. When I’m in church and I can tell that a song’s lyrics are going to be repeated over and over, I just don’t sing. Based upon the response of most worshipers, they’re not singing all that much, either. I wish pastors would take a greater role in the selection of the songs on Sundays. I always did, feeling that I was responsible before God for the entire service. Thanks for reading!
Jim
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Ugh…not only do I find the repetition of “praise chants” soul searing and cringe worthy, the extreme volume that these mindless catterwalling sessions are blasted takes the auditory torture to a whole other level. Their justification? “Well, the 4 seraphim say, ‘Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty’ day and night.” Ugh… where does it say that WE are supposed to do the same thing? No where! There is only one — ONE Psalm that has this kind of repetition, but the repeated chorus comes after different phrases, which makes it bearable. Modern worship, so-called, is seeker sensitive and geared toward entertaining the goats. Real saints loath it, in my opinion. I have absolutely NO problem with instruments being used to accompany our voices in song, but the clanging noise and laser light show is beyond needless and is an exercise in worldly emotional manipulation. Rock stars know that they can whip a crowd into a dangerous emotional frenzy through group hypnosis achieved by repetition in beat and lyrics. The rock star can control a whole stadium full of people and make them do what they normally wouldn’t do out of the hypnotic state they are put into. I encourage you to research that.
That is why Hillsong has brought an evil curse, and a spiritual blight into what should be a means of worshiping our God not only in Spirit, but also in truth! I want nothing to do with this darkness hidden by false light.
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Thanks for your thoughts, Heather. I resonate with them! Last night, my wife and I attended a concert performed by several famous folk singers. They sang their political songs and then made sure to teach them to us so we had to sing the words back to them. While that kind of thing is in the folk tradition, it’s also, as you say, highly manipulative. (I didn’t sing most of their songs.) I would say the vast majority of Christians will go along with almost anything in a worship service because they’re being responsive and submissive … both spiritual traits … but like you, the repetition not only bores me, but makes me suspicious. When I think of Hillsong … and I do that as little as possible … I think of singers bouncing up and down and running around the stage. I’m sure King David did that when he sang to the Lord … just can’t quite locate the passage …
Jim
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I’m young; I like music to be loud and upbeat; and I enjoy modern worship songs far more than hymns. I like to sing to God rather than just about God. But the repetition goes too far for me as well. It doesn’t make the song more emotionally engaging; it does the opposite. I find it distracting to repeat the same 2 lines over for 10 minutes and after a few repetitions I do just stop singing. And I’ve noticed that a lot of other people do too and it’s then just the worship team sort of off in their own little repetitive world while the congregation just kind of waits for them to get to another song. You’d think the worship leaders would notice that the volume suddenly increases when they finally stop a round of repeating and move on to begin an actually singable song. And it is really disappointing when they finally start into a song that I know and love to sing and then just repeat the chorus 10 times and completely skip all of the verses 😦
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Thanks for writing, Mich. Even though I’m probably older than you, I don’t mind if a song is loud and upbeat as long as the lyrics are biblically-based and intelligent. I can’t think of one instance in my life where I repeat the same words over and over to someone … not to my wife, nor my children, not even to my dog. So why would I want to repeat the same words incessantly to God Almighty? The reason many worship leaders don’t notice whether or not people are singing is because they have both eyes closed while they’re leading worship. But how can they gauge the effectiveness of their leading worship if they don’t know how the congregation is responding to them? Hopefully churches will begin to make the necessary corrections in the days ahead. Thanks again!
Jim
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I played various instruments while at my church over 20 years. It wasn’t until the changing of the old pastor to the new young one that the music drastically changed. After the new pastor was there for a year he got his best friend from bible college on as associate pastor. No alarms went off for me yet I really enjoyed the preaching and the pastors. Now comes the new worship leader… same bible college credits. Now we have a song leader of our “mega church” that regularly is on stage in sandals and ripped up jeans playing these songs that I call 7/11 songs. 7 words repeated 11 times. I started hearing people comment to me, why don’t we do at least some of the regular songs. When I brought that concern up to our new worship leader I was met with rather cold and harsh statements about being relatable to the public. I asked what about being in the world but not “of” the world. All of this was a conversation behind closed doors just the two of us. So over the next two months I went from playing every Sunday to not asked at all. This is after decades of service and I would think if I wasn’t “good enough” I would have been told sooner since this is a 2k plus each Sunday church. So I now consider myself as churchless. I can’t in good conscience sit in the service and feel the pull to serve with the gifts God gave me. I also can’t in good conscience sing songs from Hillsong, Jesus Culture, and others that totally drive income to churches, loose term, that are not biblical. I will stop my rant here before I start chasing rabbits.
Gregg
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Hi Gregg, I am so sorry for what happened to you. The music leader sounds insecure to me, confusing your discomfort with the music with what he may have perceived as insubordination or undermining. (Just a thought: another way to handle such a situation would be for you to encourage those who didn’t like the music to each contact the music leader personally so you weren’t the one who represented their complaints.) The worship leader’s dress might be common today – I don’t know – but it certainly shows a large degree of disrespect for those who are older and find such dress alarming and distracting. But the 7/11 songs, as you call them, are, in my view, an affront to God and a colossal waste of time. The mind-numbing repetitiveness of the lyrics must bore God, not please Him. It’s an attempt to feel something, to have some sort of an experience, but I strongly question if it’s a biblical experience. I would encourage you to find a church where you like both the music and the preaching. That might take a while, but there are some fine churches out there. When you sense that God is leading you to a church, then talk to their worship leader and see if you might be able to audition for them and play on their worship team. You may not be able to play every Sunday, but if you can use your gifts and be supportive of the church’s mission and leadership, you’ll be much more content. Thanks for reading and writing!
Jim
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You nailed it. Expresses well what I continually think. Love your insights. It grieves me that people equate music with praise and worship. They are not synonymous. Prayer, adoration of God and the way we live as Christ’s followers are also an offering of worship. Romans 12:1.
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Carol,
Thanks for reading and commenting on something I wrote nearly three years ago. We can do much better. I still think most churches sing half an hour because they hired a “worship pastor/director” and that individual equates worship with singing. But worship is far richer than merely singing! And it drives me crazy that most Christians don’t see it. Thanks for making my day!
Jim
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In response to your note above, you made my day first! So few people “get it”. Like you, I appreciate the hymns of the faith so much. They are rich in theology as well as being focused upon exalting the Lord. There have been times in recent years that I felt like getting up and walking out of church, too, because of the music. We are far too casual with our holy God. We may approach the throne of grace but let us do it in reverential awe.
Found your online article by divine providence! Keep writing. Will check out the rest of your website.
Carol
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I am sick to death of endless repetition and shallow theology. When the worship leader insists on repeating the same phrase ad nauseum, it is no longer worship. It is ANNOYING!!!! After about three repetitions, the worship leader is simply demonstrating his lack of creativity. I want meaningful songs that accurately express the greatness and glory of God that I can sing from my heart. Like you say, some of the lovey-dovey language is entirely inappropriate for worship. God created the Universe and he is the mightiest king that will ever exist. That fact needs to be acknowledged, and too many modern songs are disgustingly lovey-dovey. Lovey-dovey does not describe what our relationship with God should be. Our worship should express the greatness of God, his power, and the depth of his love for mankind. If worship becomes annoying, it is no longer worship. It becomes an impediment to our relationship with God.
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Kenneth, I agree with your sentiments completely. There is an entire industry now devoted to worship music. I have no idea what the endless repetition is supposed to convey. Are we supposed to feel something? I love the Lord but I don’t repeat the same phrase over and over to Him in prayer. Why should I do so when singing to Him? One of these days, ask the worship leader why the incessant repetition. Write down what he says and get back to me. I’d like to hear his rationale.
Jim
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he insists it’s worshipful. Somehow, he thinks that repeating the same phrase over and over makes it more worshipful. I totally disagree. He also thinks loud music is good. I told him that if you have to use earplugs, the music is TOO LOUD. He said sometimes the Holy Spirit wants the music really loud and you just have to use earplugs. Again, I totally disagree. If you have to use earplugs, the music is TOO LOUD!!!
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Pastors used to be in charge of their worship services as well as their worship leaders. Somewhere along the line, the pastors lost control of both. My wife and I attended a church for many weeks because we liked the location and the pastor but we eventually left because I couldn’t stand the worship music. The worship leader sang three songs in a row without mentioning the Father, Son, or Spirit even once. They were all “You” songs that could be sung to a lover rather than the Lord. Thanks for your thoughts!
Jim
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Completely agree. The newer, upbeat repetitious songs are too centered on the beat, our emotions and man. The older songs and hymns are more reverential and God-centered. I have often felt like running out of church in grief over the music.
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Hi Carol,
I’m okay with many contemporary songs, even if they’re upbeat, and I don’t mind being moved by a song, but the songs are just too experience-oriented for me, and the repetition is needless. If most of us are bored by repetition, how must God feel?
Jim
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This response hits the nail right square on the head.
Shallow doctrine
Built to sell
Built for the young to desire it
Song itself becomes an idol
And the repetition! Went to one service and they sang only two songs for 35 minutes! How? Constant repetition of the same set of lyrics.
Even songs today rarely even use the name anymore. Better to capitalize “You” for the right emphasis.
No songs today sing the attributes of God. A holy here, a good reference there, it thrives more on “I” than Him.
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Hi Nellie, Two songs in 35 minutes? That’s laziness on someone’s part. Either the worship leader didn’t plan effectively (it’s much easier to rehearse two songs than four or five songs) or the pastor is letting this happen. I’d rather sing 10 songs 2x each than 2 songs 10x each, but my guess is that I’m not typical … and neither are you, thank God!
I do know this: many of the Reformed churches are singing the kind of hymns that you would love. Have you listened to Keith and Kristyn Getty’s music? They use contemporary arrangements but fill their songs with strong biblical and theological lyrics. My daughter attended a Reformed church for a few years and I loved their music every time I visited.
Jim
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How well you summarized it! Bravo. Couldn’t agree more.
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I’m a woman and I agree with you. I can’t stand repetitive worship. It is about feeling. Also I believe most of the songs we sing are (what I like to call) cat songs. Cats want all the attention of the master. Dogs want to serve and please. Cat songs are all about “me, me, me” what God did for me. How he saved me and how I’m better because he rescued me. Instead of worshiping God for who he is and this attributes. The song I hate most is “this is how I fight my battles”. First of all it’s a cat song, secondly if someone walked up to me and repeated 22 times “this is how I fight my battles” I might slap them, wondering if they needed a wake up call. I agree that we’ve lost the battle cry of worship and pivoted to feel good, non-theological cat songs.
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Thanks for your comments, Taren. Not all churches sing the repetitive, mindless, Hillsong-type songs, but all too many do. I like your “cat songs” analogy. Keep hoping!
Jim Meyer
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In Revelation 4:8 we learn:
And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say,
“Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is and is to come!”
Day and night without ceasing would seem to fall under the category of “repetitive.” God already knows he’s holy. The creatures don’t need to be reminded. Something is at work here (although regrettably I’m unable to hazard a theory).
So I’ve concluded that repetition is valid. I supposed that if something is repeated 16 or 20 times, by around the 5th or 6th time the congregation has got the hang of it (since frequently the tune is unfollowable, written with cord progressions and in a metrical form that wobbles all over the map). They’re simple enough you can be singing them all week (because they’ve turned into an earworm. But let not your heart be troubled, to rid yourself of an earworm sing a song by Queen to yourself, works for me every time).
King of My Heart is one of those songs that particularly set my teeth on edge. But ultimately I suppose it’s stylistic.
The question I’ve never had any worship director/minister/pastor/leader undertake to answer is “What is the point of congregational singing, if the congregation can’t hear itself sing?” The modern setpoint (for any church that cares about such things) seems to be a sound pressure level of 83 db. That’s just 2 db shy of the level at which OSHA requires employers to require employees to wear hearing protection. With the gain way up, and the houselights way down, it seems like the congregation is stunned by the time the music part is over and it’s time for the sermon.
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Thanks for interacting with my thoughts, Nick. I would respond this way;
*We’re not told that those around the throne “sing” anything but that they “say” something. Might be a subtle difference, but we find the same idea in Luke 2:13-14 when the angels appear to the shepherds. Did they sing? But the text says they were “praising God and saying.” Could have been a chant rather than a song both in Luke 2 and in Revelation 4.
*The scene in Revelation 4 is heaven, not earth, and the worshipers are heavenly beings, not human beings. Are we meant to follow their example? Probably. And we probably will in heaven. But I’d rather not engage in too much repetition here on earth.
I don’t like worship music to be too loud, either. We can’t hear ourselves sing, much less hear the congregation. It’s cultural and generational, but may at times fall into the “mindless” category as well.
Thanks for contributing to our thinking!
Jim
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If and when I go to church, I show up very late to miss the music on purpose, for this very reason. It drives me nuts!
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Just looked up the lyrics. I’d have felt like walking out, too. It’s more like self worship.
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It’s the repetition of the lyrics “mindlessly” that bothers me. I cannot understand why Christians, of all people, think this is a good idea.
Jim
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Ever been to a church where the pastor admits he wants the music loud, so they crank up the amps to where your heart begins missing beats?
Ask any young people today and see how well they can worship without today’s genre or without music?
They would be lost.
Even the aforementioned pastor quoted Scripture about kneeling before God and bowing in humility yet, went into his view of how he feels worship is, contrary to the verses he posted on the screen.
Joshua saw the Lord, fell at his feet. Worshipped right there. No waiting for the band to show up. Same with John.
John saw Jesus in His glory and fell at His feet as dead.
Today, people bring in their mochas and lattes into the sanctuary. No fear of God because He isn’t there.
No passion, little care, why bother do anything? All of it is done for them. Worship done perfect, giving quietly online. Don’t need to open your Bible. Scripture present on the big screen. No need to test the pastor, either.
Leave in the same condition you came in. Rinse, lather, repeat every Sunday.
The lyrics are superficial at best. How we feel about God is as much depth as they can get to keep their songs hopping and lively.
Years ago, I visited an old Baptist church in the country for my wife’s uncle’s funeral. No band, ’70s style speakers still hanging from the ceiling and you can feel the old time worship was true still lingering in that sanctuary. Now true worship is replaced with adrenaline. It wears off before they leave the service.
No lasting effect, whatsoever.
I agree with you completely.
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Thanks for your thoughts, Nellie, Reminds me of what the late Howard Hendricks said about American Christianity: “It’s a mile wide and an inch deep.” I do think there’s one exception. Many Reformed churches are really doing a good job with worship. My daughter attended such a church in the Bay Area (believe it or not) and the music was great! The lyrics were deep and personal yet biblical, and my wife and I cried through much of the service. Reformed churches can be hard to find … we don’t have any that I know of in our area … but the worship that I experienced in that church was worth exporting. Keith and Kristyn Getty come from that background.
Jim
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I hear you, my friend. I completely understand. My wife and I left a church because they sang 4 songs over a 30-minute period AND NO ONE EVER TELLS YOU WHY THEY DO THAT! God bless you!
Jim
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Try hearing TWO songs over a thirty-five minute set.
Each song is literally five minutes long but the chorus and verses went over at least six times each!
Songs are getting longer but not newer. Two verses, one chorus.
Rinse, lather, repeat.
…and the pastor likes the music so loud that it causes my heart to beat different. I have to go out in the foyer or OUTSIDE.
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Why are worship leaders so deaf, dumb, and blind that they can’t understand this? do they NEVER listen to their congregations? Do they even care what the congregation thinks? Are the people so submissive that they’re afraid to speak up or say anything? Do people actually enjoy repeating the same thing ad nauseum? The people on this forum seem to get it, but at the church I go to I get the impression that most people are just fine with endless repetition and music so loud you can’t hear yourself think.
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I have some theories on this issue. First, many pastors used to oversee the content and production of the entire worship service, but now have delegated everything to the “professional worship leader.” It’s kind of a secret pact. The pastor says, “If nobody criticizes my sermon, then I won’t criticize the worship time.” Second, many worship leaders are emulating what they believe to be “successful” churches like Hillsong. Hillsong is popular and influential doing worship this way, so I’ll do it that way myself. Third, many worship leaders lead their entire set with their eyes closed. Not only is the music so loud on stage that they can’t hear the congregation singing, they are supposedly “communing with God” in public and can’t be bothered to even notice whether or not the people are singing. Finally, by only singing a few songs, rehearsals can be kept to a minimal time frame. You just have to learn 2 or 3 songs and you’re set! I wish we’d include more elements during worship than just singing. Meaningful prayers? Creative Scripture reading? Some testimonies? Video of a key outreach event? Why do we just sing, sing, sing all the time? I think many church leaders are lazy and just mail in their worship time, and that’s why they do what they do. And I say this as a pastor who met one night every week for years with a team to plan worship and who supervised the evaluation of every service we did. Thanks for writing!
Jim
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I hold three theories…
1. Worship “bands” are trying to emulate the world and the style applied to concerts.
2. They try to “encite” the congregation into “more” by constantly repeating the same verse/chorus.
3. The songs are more superficial and the original writers can’t delve deeper into a relationship with God.
The songs are getting more into allagoric style of writing. The are too shallow and must be repeated to sound “good.”
Lastly, worship today is “too professional.” It is built more on performance and stage presence than true worship. The lighting, banging sound, and “look at me leading worship” persona to where the congregation doesn’t need to participate. Why should we? Most of us can’t hold a tone and we don’t want to ruin the perfect work put in by the worship team. It is a show to replace entertainment with true worship.
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Back in the late 1980s and early 1980s, Christian churches went through the “worship wars.” Many of the old hymns – especially the ones with archaic language and slow tempos – were being retired, and some pretty good worship songs came along at the same time. I loved the songs of the 1990s because they were biblically accurate and yet meaningful. The church I led as pastor transitioned from a song leader waving his arms to a piano/organ accompaniment to a band. When this transition occurred, we were trying to reach people with the musical language of the day. We never used smoke, or strobe lights, and I was very critical of too much lighting. Guitar? That was great. Drums? That was fine. But I wanted to keep the attention on the Lord. Those times in the 1990s were probably the most meaningful times of worship I’ve ever had. But then it all changed as churches kept pushing the envelope musically. It became, “Which church can top this?” I honestly think that somebody in every church should tape the worship time – including the congregation to see if they’re singing – and to play it back for the worship team for a few weeks so they see whether or not they’re connecting. Because based on the churches I’ve attended, they’re not connecting!
Thanks for your input!
Jim
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I agree with much of what you say. It is more of pomp and circumstance view of how we are than humbling ourselves to praise God in His presence.
There are a plethora of videos on YouTube where churches are boasting of the money they spend on sound machines, lighting, and the like.
Ever since Hillsong sprang on the worldwide scope, they have led the need for the concert feel and production of concert style videos that many American Churches are desperate to emulate and attract the young people like secular music does in their arenas.
What I see in these churches is the congregation doesn’t need to sing. The music is too loud, the worship and singing is too perfect and the band does it well enough that participation is no longer needed.
Here’s the one thing that acutally terrifies me with the worship songs from the Big 3 (Hillsong, Bethel and Elevation). I read many of the comments on their videos they post through YouTube and the responses are “I love this song!”
“It gives ME goosebumps!” and the occasional “This speaks to me.”
The direction of the music has changed to worshiping the Lord by how we know Him to focusing on us and how we feel about God. The same old cliches are used and there is few revelations presented as one would understand God the closer we get.
I will end with this. My wife and I attended a Matthew West concert a few years back for her birthday. After the concert, with his father (a pastor) in presence, he gave a call to evangelize. His effort? Say His name. That was it. No repentance, no admittance of sin, no confession of guilt and he counted those who spoke His name as saved.
This is what young people are expecting from CCM and CCW today. Pleasure.
It is difficult to find gold when people are only searching for weeds.
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Do you honestly think the worship team would listen? My impression is that the worship leader is so self-satisfied that he is ‘glorifying God’ he doesn’t think it necessary to listen to anyone else. I used to send him articles about music being too loud and killing worship or excessive repetition, but he made it clear to me that he doesn’t want to hear it.
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Yeah, they probably wouldn’t listen. The pastor could do it, but would he? Maybe not. It’s time to either find or create alternatives!
Jim
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Hillsong is problematic on sooo many levels.
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And if you check out pedophilesdownunder.com, Fiona Barnett’s website, she says she experienced Hillsong as a front for child trafficking. Lots of problems there.
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I know of this.
I wish I knew who started the “worship pastor.” It is an unnecessary position.
Just go on YouTube and find how many videos where churches boast how much they spend on worship production. I tell them the money is better spent helping the poor among the congregation but they don’t care. All people want is a “perfect Sunday of worship.”
No joyful noise, just sit and enjoy the show.
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Maybe before critiquing a song you should at least make an effort to pretend like you were actually listening. You got so caught up on one line that you missed a chance to worship God for His goodness. You didn’t even get the lyrics right in your article. The bridge is “You’re never gonna let, You’re never gonna let me DOWN.” SMH…
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Hey Joe, I don’t need to repeat a line over and over and over and over and over to know that God is good. If you need that, fine. Many of us don’t.
Jim
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I’m with you, Jim…currently listening to a Christian music radio station at work where we are blessed to have a boss who loves Jesus and is fine with us listening to Christian music in the office. In many songs, the chorus is repeated over and over and over and over until it becomes almost annoying. I keep asking myself, “did I miss the verses or was there actually anything else to this song?”. I’m longing to hear Christian music with meaning, where scripture is the backbone of the lyrics, like a good ‘ol hymn.
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Thanks for your comment. I was at a store several weeks ago and heard a pop Christmas song, “Last Christmas.” The line, “Last Christmas, I gave you my heart …” was repeated ad nauseum, until I practically ran out of the store. It’s hard to find intelligent lyrics to Christian songs because, sadly, there aren’t enough intelligent Christian songwriters around. But I still maintain there is little biblical support for the constant repetition in Christian songs today. Thanks for writing!
Jim
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Updating a post I made on 1/19/21. My church is in the “Hillsong, Bethel, nothing older than 2010” camp. I’ve spent a lot of time reflecting on issues raised in this post and the comments. In no particular order:
Church is more than just what we can get out of it, it’s very much about what we can put into it. Active discipleship may include belonging to a church where the music style [style, not theology] doesn’t particularly appeal to us because it serves the needs of other Christians and is useful in evangelizing the unsaved.
My church holds services in a reclaimed commercial building which is very plain visually and has a definite “club” vibe when the lights are lowered for the “worship set.” The music is eye-wateringly loud (the contents of my pockets vibrate) but I’ve made peace with the fact that I have to wear hearing protection to keep my tinnitus from getting any worse than it already is, and it does seem to appeal to most of the members and fit the people we’re trying to reach with the gospel.
Agreed Contemporary Christian Music is definitely a big business, and a lot of it is produced by big business types you wouldn’t trust to take care of a dog you didn’t like let alone expect to be spiritual exemplars. IMHO that’s one very good reason not to listen to Christian Radio, some fill their 24×7 schedule with annoying mass-produced CCM. That said, when I look at the worship pastor and worship team at my church all I see is Christians who are sincerely doing the best they can to lead the congregation in worship. All but one are unpaid. And to do that they really have to put themselves out front, its risky. I know most of them personally, and I’m convinced they’re not doing it as an ego trip.
Don’t like something about the way the worship leader does things? Whenever that person does something you DO like, compliment him or her. Behavioral psychologists call that “positive reinforcement.” Over time you can be both an encourager AND shape the worship music.
Yeah, it’s loud and sometimes seems overly repetitive, but it’s grown on me. I pray daily that God will make the worship set the way he wants it, and I’m trusting that he has done, and will continue to do just that.
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Nick, I am an advocate for contemporary Christian music in public worship. I was involved in planning, executing, and reviewing such services for 20 years. My contention is that worship should be intelligent and that the rote repetition of lyrics does not make for better services or stronger believers. I’ve grown up in the church and fought every worship war there was to fight. I just don’t like singing any song for 8-10 minutes and don’t enjoy repeating the same words over and over again. If you do, that’s great, but it’s not for me, and I think I speak for thousands of other believers. I understand where you are coming from and I pose zero threat to your worship preferences, but I have a viewpoint that also needs to be heard. Thank you.
Jim
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Revelation 4:8-11. Your argument is one based on your preference… not Gods Word. You have completely lifted this passage out of its context…
“In Matthew 6:7-8, Jesus said: “And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.”
There is a great difference between the pagans “many words” and having a heart focused on God and reciting an aspect of God’s character. Your argument can not possibly be with the songs themselves… but it must be with the heart of the worshiper. Otherwise, you condemn those who worship day and night around the throne of God saying, “Holy Holy Holy” because apparently their few… yet many of the same words… aren’t pleasing to God if your argument has merit.
What does the Bible actually tell us about our worship? Psalm 51:16-17 tells us “for You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; You take no pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.” God is not focused on the songs we sing or the type of sacrifice we bring… he is focused on the posture of our hearts. Now if you are going to judge the heart of people because of the type of song that they sing to the Lord, emotional or not, you actually have some heart matters that you need to take up with the Lord. Judging people and the posture of their heart from a far because of the type of songs they may sing to the Lord is not pleasing to God.
I love the depth of the great hymns of the faith, and I love simple songs of worship that allow me to focus on an aspect of God’s character over and over again. Because what matters in worship is the heart of the individual before God and God alone. Your opinion… is just that…
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Rob, thank you for your comments. I hear what you say, but I stand by them. There is a vast difference between reciting “Holy, holy, holy” a few times around the throne of God in heaven and singing repetitive words ad infinitum in a worship service, a practice I don’t find in the Psalms or anywhere else in Scripture. I am just expressing my preference, so you shouldn’t feel threatened by anything I have to say. I too grew up with the old hymns, and they were never repetitive as some (not all) contemporary praise songs are. There is much to love about contemporary worship music, but we can do much better in some respects. If you like things the way they are, I am happy for you.
Jim
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“There is a vast difference between reciting “Holy, holy, holy” a few times (I think you meant day and night) around the throne of God in heaven and singing repetitive words ad infinitum in a worship service.” I humbly disagree.
I don’t feel threatened, I find myself frustrated by what I would consider to be us putting our preferences into “worship” and then judging people because of our preferences. And don’t hear me wrong… I watch young people all the time do the same things to older people in the congregation when it comes to hymns. They will look at what they consider to be a completely wooden, unemotional, traditional way of worshipping and judge it as insincere worship or just going through the motions. In my own congregation, I have to deal regularly with people on both sides of this same issue. The problem as I see it… is that we have become accustomed to making worship about us and our preferences… and I believe this grieves the heart of God. The assertation that we could be boring God with our songs… is unbiblical if it is in relation to the songs. The only thing that would be displeasing to God, is the posture of our hearts. To assert that God is bored, is to lower Him to our standards.
Doing much better… should never be about the songs if they are Biblical. Doing better should always be about our heart posture.
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Rob, Thanks for interacting with me. I appreciate it.
I noticed from your email that you are associated with Biola. I graduated from Biola in 1975 and graduated from Talbot in 1980. My dad was a pastor as was my father-in-law. I’ve attended worship services since I was five or six years old and know/sang hundreds and hundreds of hymns/choruses/worship songs. I was an early advocate of bringing praise songs into worship services in the 1970s (compared to most other pastors I knew) and I fought the worship wars of the 1980s. I am pro music in worship.
I was a pastor for 35 years and was integrally involved in the planning of worship services most of that time by planning with a team. So when I talk about worship songs, I come from the vantage point of someone who planned worship and greatly enjoyed it.
After I retired, my wife and I lived in an area where we must have visited 75+ churches, so I have that perspective as well. I wrote the article you read after we visited a church where they sang the same song two weeks in a row. That’s fine, but the song was filled with repetitious phrases that really bothered me, and they still do. One of the women leading worship also acted like a rock star on stage and that didn’t help. I did not say anything to the worship leader. My wife and I just chose not to return to the church.
Do you lead worship at your church, Rob? It must be challenging to plan worship songs that speak equally to all generations and tastes. Maybe you work with a team that can give you feedback, I don’t know. That’s why I enjoyed planning with a team and evaluating the service afterwards as a team … because I wanted to hear what other worshipers had to say. I knew that my tastes and preferences were not shared by everyone.
While I understand what you are saying about grieving God’s heart – and maybe we do emphasize our own likes and tastes too much – it seems to me that the job of the worship leader is to lead people into God’s presence and to invite and encourage them to sing to Him. When planning, I’m sure you discard many songs that you don’t feel will accomplish that purpose. Any old hymn or praise song won’t do. You want to choose the best songs possible. My contention is that for me … and for many people, but certainly not everyone … the songs that are too repetitive begin to lose their meaning the more they are sung. And I am not a fan of eight to ten minute songs, either. I went to a Chris Tomlin concert many years ago where every song was ten minutes long. I like Chris Tomlin. I like his music. I don’t like ten minute songs. Is there something wrong with me because I feel that way? I don’t mean to be absurd, but if there is, why not sing the same song for half an hour? Usually our people will let us know our limits.
I’ll leave it at that. I think church ministry these days is even more difficult than it was when I was pastoring because of social media. I left ministry just when social media was beginning, and it’s probably good that I did.
May the Lord richly bless you, Rob. Can we be on the same team but still disagree?
Jim
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Hey Jim. I’m a graduate of Biola University and started my Masters of Divinty at Talbot before finishing it at Moody Theological Seminary. I have been a Pastor for 23 years… Currently as a Lead Pastor in Ohio. In my time at Biola I led worship often for chapels, for Singspiration in Calvary Chapel on Sunday nights and at various youth camps and retreats around CA. I also led worship for a church plant in Huntington Beach, CA for a number of years where I was the youth pastor at the time. These days, my time is spent leading a multi-generational church and working hand in hand in creating weekly services with my worship pastor.
I completely understand your preferences. Everyone has them. What I struggle with is when we project our preferences onto others as though what they are doing is wrong or that God doesn’t view their worship as pleasing to Him. The post you wrote (a number of years ago) made some pretty strong statements that I felt were out of Scriptural context… not just expressing a persons opinion or preference.
You said, “But do we have biblical evidence that God doesn’t like His people repeating phrases?” Trying to apply Matthew 6:7-8 to worship songs that repeat phrases over an over again is not what that passage was communicating. It is communicating the heart of pagans who think that their recitation of words would somehow convince a deity to respond. Having a song that meditates on a phrase or concept is very different, and what God is looking for is our heart posture toward Him. That is why I also pointed out that the suggestion that God would get bored with our songs is not Biblical. When we think of God that way we lower who He is as God, and we put Him on a level with our type of preferences when Scripture so clearly states numerous times that what God is always and most concerned with is our hearts.
I will agree with you that there are many churches in America today (and around the world for that matter) that are trying to create/orchestrate an emotional response in worship. I believe it drives from the consumeristic mindset that has overtaken God’s church in many ways. However, that is a function of the heart of man, not of a song type. I don’t believe God ever dislikes our songs of worship if they are Biblical and flowing from a heart that is seeking to worship Him.
As long as we live in the flesh… we will have preferences. I get that. But my primary goal as a minister of God’s Word is to remind everyone… from the youngest to the oldest, that worship isn’t about us. It’s about God. I will never disparage another persons worship… nor attempt to paint with broad strokes when it comes to judging people based on their preferences, traditional or modern. I have experienced deep, heartfelt, intimate worship with beautiful sounding bands and singers, while also having experienced some of the most intimate worship of my life in Cambodia, with broken/out of tune instruments, voices that can’t keep on key, and with the words in another language. Those experiences have reminded me over and over again… worship isn’t about me… it’s about ascribing worth and value to God no matter what position I find myself in.
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And Yes Jim… We are absolutely on the same team.
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